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Author	Topic: Legion Archives Vol. 12
mscott Member	posted July 27, 2002 12:23 PM I have been a LSH fan since 1963 and have been buying the legion archives right along since the beginning. I am glad to hear that archive 12 is in the works. So, if anybody is counting, here is my vote: produce a Karate Kid TPB leaving KK issues out of the archive. But, in the LSH Archive, DC could place covers of the significant LSH-appearance KK issues chronologically where they fall in. Finally, if DC releases the two books the same week, everyone will be happy. I'm afraid that a complete inclusion of KK departs from what the Legion archives are all about and could hinder sales. mscott IP: Logged
India Ink Member	posted July 27, 2002 05:06 PM Yeesh, I should refresh my memory before making assertions about who wrote what. As for the KK TPB idea. That's a bit of a red herring, surely. A way to quiet all of us who think the KK stories should be part of the archive. You know, maybe if we think we'll get a KK TPB then we won't mind him being excluded from the archive. But really, how likely is it that Val's series will ever get its own trade paperback collection? And if it did, I'd be a bit up in arms about that. Sure I liked that series, but there are lots of other DC seventies series that have never gotten their own reprint collection and it would be insulting if they were overlooked while Val got his own TPB. Superman: Sandman Saga; Archie Goodwin's Batman in Detective run; the best of Haney and Aparo's B&B; Star-Hunters; Kamandi; Warlord; Rima; Blitzkrieg; Jonah Hex; Secret Society of Super-Villains...The list is long of possible seventies trade paperbacks. IP: Logged
TBolt Member	posted July 27, 2002 05:48 PM A point that I see brought up in some posts here is that the Legion Archives should be for stories about the Legion core (ie multiple team members partcipating in the stories)and not for solo Legionaire stories such as the KK issues. However, take for example The Legion #9 published last month. It is basically a solo tale of Apparition (yea it also features the post-boot TW, but he is not yet a member in this continuity). So should an issue like this be excluded from future archiving due to the small cast featured in the issue? I would think not. IP: Logged
JayFlip Member	posted July 27, 2002 07:22 PM quote: Originally posted by TBolt: A point that I see brought up in some posts here is that the Legion Archives should be for stories about the Legion core (ie multiple team members partcipating in the stories)and not for solo Legionaire stories such as the KK issues. However, take for example The Legion #9 published last month. It is basically a solo tale of Apparition (yea it also features the post-boot TW, but he is not yet a member in this continuity). So should an issue like this be excluded from future archiving due to the small cast featured in the issue? I would think not. It's not really the same thing. The Karate Kid series was distinct from the LSH series at the time...different writers, different artists, and set in the 20th century with its own supporting cast, etc. It's not like a "Legion Spotlight" issue at all. IP: Logged
KADE Member	posted July 27, 2002 08:35 PM quote: Originally posted by davidbstewart [QUOTE]Originally posted by KADE: I'm looking forward to seeing the epilogue to "The Great Darkness Saga" that came a couple of years after the original story as it originally appeared, not the "corrected" post-Crisis version that appears in the trade paperback, the inclusion of the Christmas story from 1980, the "Secrets of the Legion" mini from the early '80s, and so much more. I'm more confused by what's going to happen to the stories after Crisis. But that's another story. Please refresh my memory. In which issue did the epilogue originally appear? Thanks in advance.[/QUOTE] Sorry I haven’t answered this sooner–I had a long week at work. The annual I’m talking about is Legion of Super-Heroes Annual #2 (the Baxter paper series) and it was published in 1985 (if I'm remembering correctly). It was reprinted in Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes Annual #5 in 1987. The story is that they had some pages redrawn to reflect the post-Crisis universe. Hope this helps. Kevin IP: Logged
Donna Troy Fan Member	posted July 27, 2002 08:38 PM quote: Originally posted by JayFlip: It's not really the same thing. The Karate Kid series was distinct from the LSH series at the time...different writers, different artists, and set in the 20th century with its own supporting cast, etc. It's not like a "Legion Spotlight" issue at all. But the purpose of KK going to the 20th century was to win the right to marry Jeckie. It tied into future Legion plots. I say print them because they do matter. IP: Logged
davidbstewart Member	posted July 27, 2002 10:56 PM quote: Originally posted by KADE: Sorry I haven’t answered this sooner–I had a long week at work. The annual I’m talking about is Legion of Super-Heroes Annual #2 (the Baxter paper series) and it was published in 1985 (if I'm remembering correctly). It was reprinted in Tales of the Legion of Super-Heroes Annual #5 in 1987. The story is that they had some pages redrawn to reflect the post-Crisis universe. Hope this helps. Kevin Very much so! Thanks for the answer. ------------------ -Dave davebstew@yahoo.com IP: Logged
bob_r Member	posted July 28, 2002 07:13 AM quote: Originally posted by TBolt: However, take for example The Legion #9 published last month. It is basically a solo tale of Apparition (yea it also features the post-boot TW, but he is not yet a member in this continuity). So should an issue like this be excluded from future archiving due to the small cast featured in the issue? I would think not. There's a difference here that people aren't getting. Solo stories published as Legion stories in the Legion book, i.e., the Projectra story and others that ran as backups and were archived are one thing. Stories that occur outside the Legion's comic that feature 1 person and which had no real lasting effect are not archived. Thus a whole heck of a lot of Mon-El as deus ex machina stories were not archived in the Legion archive. You'll have to wait for the Superman, Supergirl, and Jimmy Olsen archives to get to them. And that's how I think it should be. The KK series is more like all those Mon-El stories than the backups in the Legion books. So yes, the Apparition story would be archived because it appeared in the Legion's book. The appearances of the Legion in all sorts of books while they were stuck in the 20th century a couple of years ago would be archived. But the Inferno miniseries would not be archived, despite the great art. IP: Logged
chris zickrick Member	posted July 28, 2002 11:37 AM I'll vote for just including the KK issues that guest star the team. Either that or give KK his own Archive. I do like the KK series but treat the Legion like the other superteam Archives and stick to stories where the team actually appears. IP: Logged
Carsda Member	posted July 28, 2002 12:15 PM I have a question: how many people who are voting on here have actually READ the KK issues in question? I'm seeing so much "only reprint the ones with the legion in them" and "reprint only issue #1 because that had the legion in it." how many of you realize that the legion is only in issue #1 for 5 pages? yet in later issues they're in it for the whole thing--and that they're 2 parters? that's a lot of legion to skip. however, having seen the post about all the other appearances that haven't made the grade, i'm starting to think that KK #1 is perhaps the only one that should get archived--but i think i'd want the covers and a text summary for the other 14 issues (plus Kamandi) much like they did in ACTION ARCHIVES 1. they would only surrender maybe 4 or 5 pages that way. i think even people who hate the idea of KARATE KID can't say no to that. on the other hand, i also like the idea of getting it reprinted as "bonus" material as someone else has suggested...! IP: Logged
chris zickrick Member	posted July 28, 2002 01:28 PM I've read a couple of the non-Legion issues. If it's a two parter I would say print the whole story. That still leaves the bulk of the issues not going into the Legion Archive. Other team Archives are not including there individual members exploits, the Legion doesn't excluded some of these already. Granted I'm buying the next Legion Archive no matter what and it's not really a big deal as long as they get to Levitz's first Legion run. Can't wait to see the wedding tabloid in Archive format! IP: Logged
BillNolan Member	posted July 28, 2002 03:44 PM I think, from what I've read in this thread, that even if DC reprints the complete stories of those containing Legion members from the KK series, it would still be a disjointed or unsatisfactory reading experience. I get the impression that there was an overall storyline or progression with all the KK issues, making reprinting only some of them problematic. I don't know how I currently feel about including them... - Bill IP: Logged
Triplicate Boy Member	posted July 28, 2002 06:02 PM Again, everyone who voted "yes" to including KK in the LSH archives, realize that you are also voting YES to including the Kamandi issue. If that makes sense to you, fine. Personally, I think the clear answer is the other way. IP: Logged
Corrosive Kid Member	posted July 28, 2002 06:09 PM It's too late to bid on, but a page of original art from the Karate Kid series can be seen at http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2124185833 For those of you who have never actually seen the interior of a KK comic, that's what it looked like. It even has Legionnaire guest-stars in it, too. IP: Logged
Corrosive Kid Member	posted July 28, 2002 06:22 PM Here's another scenario: How about only reprinting the bookends of the KK series? The first issue establishes that he moves to the 20th Century, and features the LSH and Nemesis Kid. The last issue shows him returning to the future with Diamondeth, with whom he reappears during the Earth War. And really, that's all you need (plus Kamandi). There's a healthy recap in KK # 15 which clues the reader into what went before (remember when comics used to have those?), and from a Legion standpoint it explains his disappearance and reappearance. Even KK # 10 isn't necessary; just because a minor reference to it is made in SLSH # 231 is no reason to include it since it has no bearing on the plot of that issue. So Val is back in the 30th Century - big deal. One speech balloon tells us that. If we're focusing on readability from a Legion of Super-Heroes perspective, the above scenario works. We don't need everything in between, just when he leaves and rejoins the group. IP: Logged
G. Cornelis McWilliams Member	posted July 28, 2002 07:47 PM I am new to collecting archvies (I only have LOSH vol.1) but, hope too have the rest read and collected over the next few years.To me the Legion Of Superheroes started with thier first appearance in Adventure Comics 247 and ended with Legion of Superheroes 313 The whole baxter era from 1984 and Tales of.... resulted in a big mess (IMHO). The 1990's with L.E.G.I.O.N 93,94 etc,etc and the follow up multiple Legion titles furthered to distance me from the charictors. I hav'nt read the new series. I hear it is good.... Perhaps if it has legs in 5 years I will gather up 50 issues and see..... Karate Kid?? First allow me ro preface my answer, by saying that I believe the Legion Of Super Heroes to be about a group of indiduals, who,over the years became more of a "Family" gathered together to oppose evil,then a team. Karate Kid was as much a part of that family, as any who ever served membership. While, his exploits in his own series, may not directly effect the core Legion Of Superhero stories (in most cases) they still involve a "sibling" who left "Home" for a few years, to embark on a few adventures in the "past". So, before I render my answer. I must,again, preface this, by saying I will be giving two answers.The reason, is because, like I stated above, the members of the Legion Of Super Heroes are all a big family. Their adventures as a group or as individuals are equaly important, in bringing thier epic retelling of thier live's as they were related from 1958? thru 1983 into a Archived collection of books. Are the Karate Kid stories from his comic part of the Legion Of Super Hero time frame? In otherwords, is their any reference between the solo Karate Kid stories and the on going Legion Of Super Heroes comic (Superboy and the Legion Of Super Heroes)that implies, those stories from Karate Kid, is part of the Legion Of Super Heroes continuum? Or are they seperate stories, that don't take place within the Legion Of Superheroes time frame, and were more an affect by D C Comics to cash in on the current Kung Fu and Karate craze sweeping the nation back in the middle 70's? If Karate Kid is part of the Legion chronology then yes! he must appear within the Legion Of Super Heroes Archvies over the next few issues, in his proper place. If not, (and I doubt this) then no.Leave him out. IP: Logged
Zongo New Member	posted July 28, 2002 11:50 PM I have all of the Legion Archives so far. In my opinion the KK series was poorly drawn and poorly written, and I would prefer to not have it in the archives. I have all of the original issues, but only because I was a completist. Now I find it's impossible to complete about anything, so I simply want quality and the KK series was not quality IMHO. I also believe that if more than a few issues were in an Archive I wouldn't buy the archive. ------------------ Zongo Out! IP: Logged
Carsda Member	posted July 28, 2002 11:53 PM quote: Originally posted by BillNolan: I think, from what I've read in this thread, that even if DC reprints the complete stories of those containing Legion members from the KK series, it would still be a disjointed or unsatisfactory reading experience. I get the impression that there was an overall storyline or progression with all the KK issues, making reprinting only some of them problematic. I don't know how I currently feel about including them... - Bill outpost2 laid out a plan where the stories wouldn't be disjointed or unsatisfying. however, i have a feeling the ARCHIVES want to print things in the order they came out--not necessarily the order it makes sense to read them in. Outpost2's plan made about a third of the next 3 archives KK related. is that too much? i'm not sure... there IS an overall storyline to the KK issues, so just some of them reprinted would be problematic. however, they could do my text page idea between issues that they don't reprint, to sum up what we've missed. IP: Logged
Zongo New Member	posted July 28, 2002 11:56 PM I would really be happy if the next archive finished off Mike Grells run. I love it the 10 is Cave C's issue. And 11 is the Grell archive. I would be great to have 12 be Grells swan song, especially if it included the wedding, but I know this is not chronologically correct. I think then I would consider 12 a good endpoint for me and be done with the Legion Archives at an even dozen. ------------------ Zongo Out! IP: Logged
datalore Member	posted July 29, 2002 09:08 AM Going back and looking at the issues... ...I see issue 1 should definitely be included... ...and we could likely get away with, say, 8-13 (OTHER Legion members appear in significant roles, and Val comes back to the 30th century for issue 10, and this would have a "relatively" complete story around them...) True, it would leave the Diamondeth stuff out (WHICH IS referred to in S&LSH when Val returns...), which I don't like, but it does give folks the "feel" of the KK series, AND relates to the Legion (only Karate Kid 11 only has Karate Kid...but it leads from 10 to 12...) I still feel all of them should be included...outpost2's plan makes it so they don't take a significant part of any volume, and if (sorry, don't remember whose) plan is implemented in getting EXTRA pages (and a little more extra frequency to the volumes, the folks who want "to get to the good stories" would be satisfied too! I'll have to go pull up the count, but I think either Vol. 12 or 13 were to be REALLY short in pages...so, if say 20 pages were added to both of these, 2 "extra" Karate Kid issues could be "given" to folks, giving them a treat! IP: Logged
datalore Member	posted July 29, 2002 09:33 AM Using outpost2's numbers, and assuming an extra 15 or so pages on SOME of these archives... VOLUME 12 SUPERBOY [first series] # 213 (Dec 1975) 12+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 214 (Jan 1976) 12+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 215 (Mar 1976) 10+8+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 216 (Apr 1976) 12+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 217 (Jun 1976) 11+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 218 (Jul 1976) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 219 (Sep 1976) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 220 (Oct 1976) 12+5+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 221 (Nov 1976) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 222 (Dec 1976) 11+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 223 (Jan 1976) 17+cover KARATE KID # 1 (Mar-Apr 1976) 18+cover. Legionnaires appear. DC SUPER STARS # 3 (May 1976) Reprint cover only. LIMITED COLLECTORS' EDITION # C-49 (Oct-Nov 1976) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 1 (Feb 1973) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 2 (Mar 1973) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 3 (Apr-May 1973) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 4 (Jul-Aug 1973) Reprint cover only. Total pages = 227 ADD Karate Kid #2 KARATE KID # 2 (May-Jun 1976) 17+cover. Bringing the total to 245. (And, hey, a Major Disaster appearance might bring in Green Lantern and JLI fans...not to mention, some of those reprint covers could be pushed into the next volume...heck, taking them all out gives a total of 239 pages...) VOLUME 13 SUPERBOY [first series] # 224 (Feb 1976) 17+cover KARATE KID # 3 (Jul-Aug 1976) 17+cover. KARATE KID # 4 (Sep-Oct 1976) 17+cover. Legionnaires appear. SUPERBOY [first series] # 225 (Mar 1977) 11+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 226 (Apr 1977) 11+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 227 (May 1977) 17+cover DC SPECIAL # 28 (Jun-Jul 1977) 11+cover. Legionnaires appear. SUPERBOY [first series] # 228 (Jun 1977) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 229 (Jul 1977) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 230 (Aug 1977) 11+6+cover KARATE KID # 5 (Nov-Dec 1976) 17+cover. Part one of two. KARATE KID # 6 (Jan-Feb 1977) 17+cover. Part two of two. Legionnaires appear. Total pages = 210 ADD KARATE KID # 7 (Mar-Apr 1977) 17+cover. Karate Kid battles the Gyro-Master. So, total pages is 228 (and, if need be, pull some of the reprint covers from Volume 12...maximum of 6 brings it to 234 pages) VOLUME 14 KARATE KID # 8 (May-Jun 1977) 17+cover. Karate Kid battles Pulsar. Iris Jacobs kisses Karate Kid but they are interrupted by Princess Projectra. KARATE KID # 9 (Jul-Aug 1977) 17+cover. Projectra appears. KARATE KID # 10 (Sep-Oct 1977) 17+cover. Karate Kid and Princess Projectra use a time bubble to travel to 30th century Orando. SUPERBOY & THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES # 231 (Sep 1977) 34+cover. The events of this issue follow immediately after KARATE KID #10. SUPERBOY & THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES # 232 (Oct 1977) 34+cover. KARATE KID # 11 (Nov-Dec 1977) 17+cover. Karate Kid returns to the 20th century, battles Major Disaster. DC SUPER-STARS # 17 (Nov-Dec 1977) 10+cover. Presents the untold story of the Legion's first official case. JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA # 147 (Oct 1977) 32+cover. Part one of two. Legion team-up. JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA # 148 (Nov 1977) 34+cover. Part two of two. Legion team-up. Total pages = 221 ADD S&LSH 233 (which has a back up with Princess Projectra that COMES from Karate Kid 8-11...) Okay, I didn't look up the pages, but think 34 & cover, which makes this one a little heavy at 256 pages, but (And, to be honest, I wouldn't want the JLA story, BUT I do think it is important to have it...trying to make sure the archives are COMPLETE!) Then volume 15 would only need 4 Karate Kid issues (and MAYBE the Kamandi issue, and the Legion has a MAJOR part in HALF the KK issues, as well as the Lord of Time subplot...which might bring in some JLA fans...), and it SHOULD end with the wedding, if that one is a little thick (and them leaving for their honeymoon in Volume 16...) This sound okay? IP: Logged
datalore Member	posted July 29, 2002 09:36 AM Oh, and bump up the frequency of Legion volumes a little, so those who feel the Karate Kid stories are "slowing the progress" don't feel cheated... (Not to mention, but with Major Disaster, the Lord of Time and Robin in the Karate Kid issues, AND the JLA issues...who knows? Maybe some fans of the DCU in general will come in, and check the Legion out!) IP: Logged
ScarletSpider Member	posted July 29, 2002 11:09 AM quote: Originally posted by datalore: Using outpost2's numbers, and assuming an extra 15 or so pages on SOME of these archives... VOLUME 12 SUPERBOY [first series] # 213 (Dec 1975) 12+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 214 (Jan 1976) 12+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 215 (Mar 1976) 10+8+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 216 (Apr 1976) 12+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 217 (Jun 1976) 11+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 218 (Jul 1976) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 219 (Sep 1976) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 220 (Oct 1976) 12+5+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 221 (Nov 1976) 17+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 222 (Dec 1976) 11+6+cover SUPERBOY [first series] # 223 (Jan 1976) 17+cover KARATE KID # 1 (Mar-Apr 1976) 18+cover. Legionnaires appear. DC SUPER STARS # 3 (May 1976) Reprint cover only. LIMITED COLLECTORS' EDITION # C-49 (Oct-Nov 1976) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 1 (Feb 1973) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 2 (Mar 1973) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 3 (Apr-May 1973) Reprint cover only. LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES [first series] # 4 (Jul-Aug 1973) Reprint cover only. Total pages = 227 ADD Karate Kid #2 KARATE KID # 2 (May-Jun 1976) 17+cover. Bringing the total to 245. (And, hey, a Major Disaster appearance might bring in Green Lantern and JLI fans...not to mention, some of those reprint covers could be pushed into the next volume...heck, taking them all out gives a total of 239 pages...) I really don't see the need to reprint all the cover pages of reprints books. If anything it might create confusion with the less informed fan. IP: Logged
TommyYesterday Member	posted July 29, 2002 11:50 AM I vote "no" on including any "Karate Kid" stories in a "Legion" archive. To echo other posters, they weren't very good, and I'd consider them as filler, taking up valuable space that should be used for Legion stories that actually appeared in a Legion book. I wouldn't want, let's say, future "Justice League" archives to include issues of "Firestorm" or "Martian Manhunter", even if they were issues that featured appearances by other JLAers -- and even if it was unlikely that those other series would ever be reprinted, and I don't want "Karate Kid" comics diluting my Legion Archives experience! (Mr. Greenberger, thanks for giving fans a vote!) IP: Logged
Nightcrawler Member	posted July 30, 2002 03:29 AM quote: Originally posted by datalore: Oh, and bump up the frequency of Legion volumes a little, so those who feel the Karate Kid stories are "slowing the progress" don't feel cheated... Yes! Please! quote: (Not to mention, but with Major Disaster, the Lord of Time and Robin in the Karate Kid issues, AND the JLA issues...who knows? Maybe some fans of the DCU in general will come in, and check the Legion out!) Hadn't thought of this angle. I do hear a lot of fans are not collecting the Legion stories because it's set in the 30th Century. Promoted the right way and KK's series might bring some other readers in. And, yes, I have read the KARATE KID series. For those of you who don't like it's quality, I recommend that you avoid most of the Golden Age archives, especially Green Lantern, Flash, early All Star, etc. Those stories deserved archive treatment and I think historically so does KK. And, I see KARATE KID as an official spin off series, which makes it different than say SUPERBOY, SUPERGIRL, Mon-El's appearances, etc. DC, please include KARATE KID in the LEGION ARCHIVES! IP: Logged

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