|
 DC Universe [all categories]
 DC Universe Archives
 Legion Archives Vol. 12 (Page 4)
|
 UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! This topic is 17 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 |
next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: Legion Archives Vol. 12 |
|
DStepp Member |
posted July 23, 2002 08:28 PM
  
I take issue with that. Archives are not about history per se as they are about collecting the meritorious runs. DC need feel no pressure for a WILD DOG Archive just because they published it. Calling KK a peice of history is a stretch. Some of the stories were enjoyable and a couple relevant (or at least supportive of) to eventual character development in the series but are hardly essential. As we approach Crisis this will be a bigger and bigger problem. DC (and us if we can help) should try to start arguing out not just what should be included but where the natural ending of things should be. D. IP: Logged |
|
NickDanger Member |
posted July 23, 2002 08:30 PM
This makes the Aquaman Archive problem seem small! The precedent has already been set that Legion guest-starring appearances are including in their archive editions, so not including the group’s appearances in Karate Kid is going to be a glaring omission and including every issue of Karate Kid is going a bit overboard. I’m not against giving the kid his own archive, but there are several other features that are far more deserving of the archive treatment that I want to see first--the aforementioned Aquaman comes to mind. Obviously, I’m leaning towards only putting in Karate Kid issues that feature the Legion as guests in one form or another. However, I would also like to see small cover reproductions and plot synopsis of the issues not included similar to what was done in the first Action Archive. This would bring readers up to speed on any sub-plots they may be continued in the issues that are included. The archives haven’t included every Superboy adventure outside the group; I see no reason why we need to see every Karate Kid solo story outside of the Legion. This would also eliminate the need to reprint the Kamandi appearance and the later Brave and the Bold appearance. The Justice League/Justice Society/Legion team-up was mentioned here and I’m against seeing that in a Legion Archive despite what I wrote regarding guest appearances. Again, a synopsis and cover images would be nice, but I think that story belongs in a Justice League Archive. It’s a long story and would command too much space. Unlike the Karate Kid issues we’ll see the arc reprinted at some point and it really only needs to be archived once. The scary thing is that problems like this are going to become more and more apparent as this and other archive series close in on the present. I don’t envy the person who has to make the final decisions on stuff like this because there is no way to please everyone… Good luck! Frank ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
BearPaws Member |
posted July 23, 2002 08:34 PM
quote: The "near future" possibility of a KK Archives shouldn't be a determining factor -- who would have foreseen Black Canary 5 years ago? Enemy Ace? New Teen Titans? The Archive line exists for a reason, and it's not to be able to collect every page that's ever been printed. KK's reflection of cultural history is very distinct from concurrent LSH. Including KK would be confusing from a historical point of view, as well as drive away that segment of the audience that doesn't really care about KK. Archive sales are slowing down for LSH as it is -- cutting the LSH content roughly in half to accomodate a supporting character in an unrelated storyline can't help keep the numbers up. IMHO, most readers (not us fanboys) would appreciate them not being included. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
BearPaws Member |
posted July 23, 2002 08:42 PM
quote: I beg to differ. Many "meritorious" runs are so highly regarded specifically because of the culturally historical content. They show the evolution of the industry, as well as the artists' skills and the growth of the character(s). In addition, they show such things as Superman demolishing slums to promote government rebuilding, Superman actively killing the bad guys, Plastic Man under the influence of marijuana, the role of women (Black Canary, Wonder Woman) as active/adventurous characters, the use of black characters (Ebony White) in graphic art, the list goes on. I think you do the entire Archives line a disservice to ignore the historical content, and that's a significant (but not the primary) reason why I collect them. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
DStepp Member |
posted July 23, 2002 08:47 PM
To jump back to the other side of the argument, I don't think KK's inclusion or not need be based on a sales argument. I tend to suspect Archive sales are impervious to this kind of thing. According to my own data, Legion Archives are still retaining nearly 70% of their original (i.e. the first one back in 1991) audience. The fanboys are a big chunk of that audience. The only real question is whether KK is the best and most meritorious use of the pages offered. D. IP: Logged |
|
DStepp Member |
posted July 23, 2002 08:53 PM
You're making a semantic argument which is not worth pursuing beyond a clarification. Historical value is one reason Archival may be meritorious. Furthermore history and merit are not communicative: One is not the other. THere are meritorious series that are not all that historically meaningful on a grant scale (Black Canary) and there are historical things that are not necessarily meritorious (A Genius Jones Archive). But this is a side track. Let's stay on focus with the KK material. D. IP: Logged |
|
outpost2 Member |
posted July 23, 2002 08:56 PM
Well, to answer Bob's original question, it seems like there's some support for Volume 12 containing SUPERBOY #213-223 and KARATE KID #1. The disagreements begin with Volume 13. So it appears that he has his answer for the next release. Is this an accurate conclusion? IP: Logged |
|
BearPaws Member |
posted July 23, 2002 09:14 PM
quote: Yes, sir. IP: Logged |
|
outpost2 Member |
posted July 23, 2002 09:47 PM
The following is what we get by eliminating all KARATE KID issues except for issue #1. Picking and choosing from the KK series is really not an option. The Legionnaires tended to appear in single chapters of multi-part storylines, so you end up needing to include more than two-thirds of the entire series. So it's really all or nothing. Also, I broke down the volumes based on whether or not the JLA team-ups are included. It turns out that the two-parter is a freebie since, whether you include the JLA tales or not, Volume 15 ends with SUPERBOY # 245. So why not get fatter Archives at the same price? DC needs to do the JLA material anyway for the Justice League Archives, so why not give us the pages for "free" in the Legion line as a "thank you" for supporting 15 volumes?
SUPERBOY [first series] # 213 (Dec 1975) 12+6+cover Total pages = 227 VOLUME 13 SUPERBOY [first series] # 224 (Feb 1976) 17+cover Total pages = 243 VOLUME 14-A (JLA team-up not included) DC SUPER-STARS # 17 (Nov-Dec 1977) 10+cover. Legion's first official case. Total pages = 227 VOLUME 15-A (JLA team-up not included) SUPERBOY & THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES # 239 (May 1978) 34+cover. Total pages = 218 VOLUME 14-B (JLA team-up included) DC SUPER-STARS # 17 (Nov-Dec 1977) 10+cover. Legion's first official case. Total pages = 258 VOLUME 15-B (JLA team-up included) SUPERBOY & THE LEGION OF SUPER-HEROES # 237 (Mar 1978) 34+cover. The Legionnaires say good-bye to Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl, who are forced to resign due to a Legion rule forbidding members from marrying. Total pages = 255 IP: Logged |
|
casselmm47 Member |
posted July 23, 2002 10:06 PM
quote: An accurate conclusion, yes, but to sign of things to come.... Years from now we'll have the quandry of, among other things... for example, the Atom. Should his Super-Team Family storyline ('Search For Jean Loring') be included in the Atom Archive series, or shoehorned into the JLofA Archives, since the STF series was essentially an extension of JLA for that arc, with the conclusion of the whole storyline being back in JLA #158 (The storyline was heavily 'cross-footnoted/crossreferenced' in both titles, IIRC). BUT... that same STF storyline also featured the Secret Society of Super-Villains in the last part of the arc. So is a potential SSOSV Archive blessed with this story/issue, or not? Will it's inclusion 'flow' when sandwiched between issues of the regular SSOSV title in an archive? The crossovers from title to title will eventually lead down a path that will have the Collections Editor scratching out his eyeballs and pulling out his hair. Once up to the mid-to-late 1970's, there'll have to be consideration given whether an 'all-or-none' attitude will yield Archive readers the best overall 'flow' between archived stories (given the KK/Kamandi crossover... will a reader understand 'what has gone on before' in the Kamandi title to grasp the nature of the story?). I think (before getting to the high-saturation crossover era) we have to draw a harder distinction between the early Legion stories being archived (as the evolution of the concept) and including all subsequent cameos of the Legion regardless of true contribution to their mythos (Hmmm... did someone mention controversial on a recent thread Would I buy a SLOSH/KK Archive as proposed on this thread? Yes. But I'd just as soon see a KK Archive all on it's own. I might have to wait a little longer to see it, that's all. After all, a single story from an anthology title like DC Special might be acceptable to 'wiggle' it's way into the main SLOSH archive series, but a whole other regular series... I think we might be pushing. Cass IP: Logged |
|
Marty Raap Member |
posted July 23, 2002 10:11 PM
Outpost2 is really going to town, isn't he? Good job! I vote for his Option #2, to put a finer point on my earlier vote. I also like his point that's it's really all-or-nothing; trying to cherry-pick selected KK issues is the worst option, in my view. On the Legion/JLA team-up: I'd include it both in Legion and in JLA (and I'd happily buy both Archives even with the duplicated material). IP: Logged |
|
DStepp Member |
posted July 23, 2002 10:19 PM
I think you need to roll an issue forward on #13 through #15 since #13 is a tad long and #15 is a tad short. I gather you are not including Preface, Foreward or Bio pages in this. Hence, #13 by your calculations would be quite long. The roll over solves the problem. I don't think there's anyway they will include the JLA/JSA team-up in this since the TPB series will be long past it 5 years from now when #15 hits the stands (and that's optimism!). The JLA Archives will be getting near that era then and there will no support for duplication. While it is one of my favorite JLA/JSA team-ups, 3 editions of it are unwarranted. D. ------------------ The Comics Archives - The Source of Record of Golden Age DC The Comics Archives II - A significant repository of Silver Age information The DC Archives Home Page - A resource for DC's Archive Editions IP: Logged |
|
Schatzie Member |
posted July 23, 2002 11:59 PM
quote: Mr. Greenberger, First let me say, "thanks for taking the time to post here"; it is very much appreciated. As for the Karate Kid issues, I would not include them. After all the Archive is entitled "LEGION ARCHIVES" not "Karate Kid Archives". IP: Logged |
|
beppothesupermonkey Member |
posted July 24, 2002 12:09 AM
Mr. Greenberger, I would love to see the entire KK series included in the LEGION ARCHIVES. I have fond memories of Diamondeth. ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
Schatzie Member |
posted July 24, 2002 12:12 AM
OK, while that was a bit simplistic on my part, there is truth to it from a marketing perspective. When people buy a Legion Archive they expect to see the Legion and not solo stories of one character. If there is truely a demand for Karate Kid, then separate Archive(s) or TPB(s) would be the better way to go. IP: Logged |
|
Joe Pacheco Member |
posted July 24, 2002 12:13 AM
Hi Bob!! Thanks for asking! No Karate Kid. I'm the reader Corrisive talked about who wants to read the Mike Grell stories. 15 issues of 20th century Kung Fu device doesn't fit in with the sexy 70's era 30th century sci-fi (at least not in the same book). This sounds like putting the solo Human Torch stories into the Fantastic Four reprints. IP: Logged |
|
Schatzie Member |
posted July 24, 2002 12:14 AM
We "truly" need an edit function on these boards.  IP: Logged |
|
Carlo Member |
posted July 24, 2002 12:33 AM
No fan of the Legion by a long shot, but... A real fan of creators/DC staff checking in for the pulse of things! Thanks, Bob... best... IP: Logged |
|
TBolt Member |
posted July 24, 2002 01:40 AM
I have every edition of the Legion Archives issued to date, and my vote is to include ALL of the Karate Kid issues, as I would be opposed to only including some of those KK issues in future Legion Archives. I also would like to see the JLA/JSA/Legion teamup reprinted in the Legion Archives when that time comes. In general, I see no reason not to reprint material from mid-to-late 1970's comics (ie, All-Star, JLA, Legion) as long as the demand is there. IP: Logged |
|
Corrosive Kid Member |
posted July 24, 2002 02:03 AM
quote: You're assuming that consumers will be buying all three editions. Again, it's not fair to someone who only buys the Legion Archives to expect them to hunt down a Justice League Archive for two issues, or a TPB of the JLA/JSA crossovers for the same reason. Virtually the whole story takes place in the 30th Century (at least, that's how I remember it) so it's more a Legion story than anything else. There wasn't a note in Supergirl Archives Vol. 1 to run out and buy Legion Archives Vol. 1 for stories which featured the Legion; why should the JLA/JSA/LSH crossover be any different? Again, just because a customer buys one archive line, DC can't assume that they buy them all (or force them to). IP: Logged |
|
Corrosive Kid Member |
posted July 24, 2002 02:14 AM
quote: Until the Legion got its own series in Adventure Comics # 300, the only way they could appear was as guest-stars in someone else's feature. Once they got their own feature, the Legion Archives basically only reprinted an occassional issue of Jimmy Olsen or Superboy in which the Legion played a greater-than-cameo role. There were plenty of cameo appearances which were omitted, and most of their Karate Kid appearances would rank right up there (or down there, depending on how you look at it) with those omitted cameos. So I wouldn't say that it would be a big deal to leave them out. On a side note, I'm surprised at how many people remember specific details about KK's series. I figured a topic about the Legion would be the least popular thread on this board, not the most popular. IP: Logged |
|
Joe Pacheco Member |
posted July 24, 2002 03:26 AM
quote: Based on the number of archives, Legion IS the most popular. IP: Logged |
|
jape Member |
posted July 24, 2002 04:32 AM
sorry you asked yet, Bob? IP: Logged |
|
chlorophyll kid Member |
posted July 24, 2002 06:43 AM
I vote a resounding yes to inclusion of the JLA crossover. I am yet to be convinced of the merits of including all of the Karate Kid issues. I would include the most important issues and release a TPB of Karate Kid #1 15 at the same time for the curious. Leaving out the JLA would be criminal. I can't afford to support two long running Archive series to get one story, put it in both! IP: Logged |
|
Donna Troy Fan Member |
posted July 24, 2002 09:19 AM
Just to clarify, my vote is to include the KK run of 15 issues, Kamandi 58 (what is relevant - leave off a page or 2) and B&B 198. I say skip the JLA issues IP: Logged |
This topic is 17 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 All times are ET (US) | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
  |
|
Contact Us | DC Comics
Copyright © 2003 DC Comics
Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
DC COMICS PRIVACY INFORMATION
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47