posted January 24, 2003 02:28 AM            

Of course, people have a right to voice their opinions, and I hope discussion of these issues would intrigue people and lead them into buying Archives (as it apparently has in Great Bear's case, to his credit). It's just that, while I don't mind reading how someone thinks that the trees that died for KK to be printed gave their lives in vain, I'd prefer in the context of this discussion (which might actually shape the contents of a future Archive) for that opinion to come from someone who might actually buy the Archive they're trying to shape with their input. It's natural to listen more attentively to someone willing to put his money where his mouth is. Even if they're wrong, they're paying for the privilege!

Relating this to myself, the only Archive line I won't purchase are the Mad Archives. If some debate came up over how to present the second issue of Mad Archives, I'd hardly get involved in it. I mean, what do I care if I'm not buying it anyway, and why should anyone listen to me? It's like entering faulty data into a computer; anything I say would just be polluting the relevant input from people who are impacted by the resolution to the problem.

posted January 24, 2003 10:33 PM               

I don't really want to discount the opinions of the "buy everything" folks. In fact, that's what drives this board. However, I believe the most important tool we have as a group is Dave Stepp's annual poll. It forces the "buy anything" group to make choices and determine preferences, and I would think the poll carries more weight than the scattered "I'll buy that!" responses.

Where do I fit in? I only have about 15-20 volumes, but I plan to get them all someday. Since I am absolutely thrilled with every volume released and can't complain about DC's direction thus far, I think I've just discounted my own opinions on this board because I too am one of the sheep. (To this end, I've resisted sharing my version of the ubiquitous "wish lists". I'll take what I get and be happy.) Most of us on this board fall under the "buy anything" category with the goal being a complete DC Archive collection. That's not a bad thing, as both the Archives line and this forum might disappear without this fine group of folks. So, in closing, I have two things to say: "Baa!" and "Sign me up!"

posted January 24, 2003 11:05 PM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Gordon:
Hmm, that was SO off-topic!

---

Sorry, James! I was referring to my previous long-winded post, not your response to it.

posted January 25, 2003 02:08 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Gordon:
Here's food for thought: I often wonder if we shouldn't discount the opinions of those buy every Archive. They'll buy ANYTHING! Jim Gordon

---

Not only will they buy anything, but then they'll complain about "being forced" to buy something like New Teen Titans.

HOWEVER the people who buy all the archives have been exposed to all the material and I value their opinions. Just as I value the input from the fence sitters, who are more selective by definition. Finally, from what I've seen, everyone here is polite and stays away from discussing book that he would never buy.

posted January 25, 2003 02:15 AM            

But the KK/Legion question is different. It's a chance to actually influence the contents of a volume. An intelligent answer to that question requires more knowledge of the Archives and comics in general. Also, I've got to think there are very few impulse buyers for Legion #12; it's got to be mostly long-time fans. Here I think the opinion of a non-consumer is worth very little. There aren't too many issues that fall into this category.

I also don't know how many people really fit into the "buy everything" category. I'd come awfully close, but I draw the line at Mad, for instance. I'm also more reluctant when it comes to non-DCU books like Tor, although I'd buy those. Scribbly would be tough for me, too, although it's obviously a favorite for some people. I've heard other hard-core fans say they'll stop certain lines as they get more modern, like Justice League and Legion, although that wouldn't be a concern for me unless DC started pumping out post-Crisis Archives. And personally, I can't understand why there's no outcry for the mighty Red Bee to get his own Archive, but I suspect I don't have too much company for that sentiment even on this board.

posted January 25, 2003 02:28 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marty Raap:
And personally, I can't understand why there's no outcry for the mighty Red Bee to get his own Archive, but I suspect I don't have too much company for that sentiment even on this board.

---

posted January 25, 2003 03:46 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marty Raap:
So who would win in a fight between the Red Bee and the Haunted Tank?

---

posted January 25, 2003 06:29 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
Not only will they buy anything, but then they'll complain about "being forced" to buy something like New Teen Titans.

---

Every now and then, I see a comment that indicates that the poster doesn't understand my point about the Titans. I'm not trying to pick on Joe; I really have seen several comments like this one, but this one is most convenient. I'm really sorry Joe, because I think the same thing happened to you on another thread.

I have bought every Archive, but I've never felt forced to buy anything. I'm probably the most vocal critic of New Teen Titans, but my complaint has nothing to do with feeling forced to buy it. I don't think that any other critic on this board has felt forced. In any case, I don't remember anyone saying so.

I view the Archives as a pie with many slices. Let's go back in time to when there were only 4 Archives, which means the pie is divided into 4 slices. If those slices are Superman, Batman, All-Star, and New Teen Titans, then I have a problem. Now let's go forward in time to when we have 500 Archives (500 slices). I have no problem with the complete Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans taking up 5 (or whatever it takes) slices.

One problem I have with New Teen Titans is that it was published before the original Teen Titans. I would have the same complaint if GL/GA were published as an Archive before GL Archives 1 or 2 or 3 or... I'd also have the same complaint if 70's All-Star were published before the completion of the original All-Star. Same with Perez Wonder Woman and H.G. Peter Wonder Woman. Same with Weisenger Superman and Siegel/Shuster Superman, although I don't insist on getting all the Golden Age volumes before getting all of the Silver Age volumes.

This has nothing to do with being forced to buy New Teen Titans. However, the existence of New Teen Titans says something about the way DC makes its selections. It's the selection process (based on the evidence available to me) I have a problem with, not the New Teen Titans.

posted January 25, 2003 07:02 AM            

1. Here's my vote.
2. Here's my reasoning.

I'd prefer that people who are not going to buy the Archive in question not make a "Here's my vote" post because the only way to evaluate this kind of post is to add up the votes and see which side has the most votes. In any case, I feel strongly that anyone who has already made a purchasing decision (either way) should state that decision when making a "Here's my vote" post.

However, I would like to hear as many "Here's my reasoning" posts as possible. Although it is nice to know when people belong to either of the extreme camps, sound reasoning is sound regardless of the source. Tallying conclusions would be a mistake for this kind of vote; if 9 out of 10 people vote one way using bad reasoning and the other person uses good reasoning, then the 1 person is the one who counts.

For example, NecessaryImpurity had a wonderful post about the B&B question where he correctly isolated the immediate problem from the future problems. Once you do this, it becomes obvious to most people that there is only one solution to the immediate problems. If NI has never bought an Archive and flat out refuses to buy any Archive in the future, I don't care because his reasoning is sound. If everyone on this board (a small percentage of Archive buyers) disagreed with NI, it wouldn't matter because he would still be right.

posted January 25, 2003 10:04 AM            

I just like the Legion.

------------------
"My name is Mark....Question Mark..."

posted January 25, 2003 10:27 AM               

quote:

---

It makes some sense that the opinion of someone who won't be buying a particular Archive line should be discounted when he's speaking about that line. Here's food for thought: I often wonder if we shouldn't discount the opinions of those buy every Archive. They'll buy ANYTHING! I softly chuckle when I see some of the folks on here say "I'll buy that" or "Sign me up for that" about every single proposed Archive. I don't want to diminish the importance of anyone's opinion or their enthusiasm, but if I were DC I'd be MOST curious to hear from the people who only occasionally or never buy Archives. To them, my question would be "What Archive would YOU buy if we published it?" or "What would it take to get you to buy an Archive?". Go after the potential customers, and, unless DC makes some stupid choices, the current customers will follow like sheep.
I don't really want to discount the opinions of the "buy everything" folks. In fact, that's what drives this board. However, I believe the most important tool we have as a group is Dave Stepp's annual poll. It forces the "buy anything" group to make choices and determine preferences, and I would think the poll carries more weight than the scattered "I'll buy that!" responses.

---

I think I fall under the buy-anything category for Silver Age material, and the buy-almost-nothing category for Golden Age material. I tend to post "me too" messages far more freely than I post arguments against proposed archives. Frankly, the latter strikes me as raining on someone else's parade, and I don't wish to write such posts on a board where the overwhelming mood is positive.

In the Silver Age category, I have bought every archive except the war ones (which I will buy someday) and the World's Finest and Supergirl. I skipped Sg because I read most of her 80 page giants from the sixties, and the material never satisfied me. The action sequences in these was always too dull, and the plots generally weren't complex enough to compensate for that. I skipped the WF because my impression was that the first two or three WF archives would largely repeat material I've already read in the 80 pagers.

My response to many suggested Silver Age archives is a heartfelt, "That would be so cool!" I frequently post along these lines, to add support to a title I feel I would buy.

The Golden Age is different. I sampled most of the lines as they started: Superman vol 1, Wonder Woman vol 1, Shazam vol 1, Green Lantern vol 1, All-Star vols 2 - 4. I did not enjoy most of these sufficiently to continue buying. Either the art was too crude, or the stories too simple, or, in the case of All-Star, I felt the series had completely missed the boat by not having the stars in action together. This puts me in a bit of a quandry as to which GA reprints to support. I believe that when some lines reach later volumes, I will enjoy them. I enjoyed All-Star Comics vol 8, and I look forward to the later Flash, Green Lantern, and Shazam volumes. So I mostly stay out of discussions as to what GA material to reprint, though I support a few series based on interest in their artists, and I support more Shazam! reprints because I think Capt. Marvel became more readable relatively early in his history.

As for the great LSH/KK debate, I am still in favor of giving KK his own volume. I have no idea how the page counts work out, but I think it's safe to ballpark and say that 12 +/- 1 issues of his series could fit into a standard volume. That would leave a few issues at the end of the run to be reprinted in some other package. This is the best possible scenario. It lets completists pick up virtually the entire run, and lets each reader make his own decision about whether the material is worth paying for. If anyone wants to argue that a KK volume won't sell, I have two responses:

First, I am likely to get curious about the KK series and pick up the volume, giving DC another sale. If you force the material into the LSH archives, I am likely to resent it as a cynical marketing ploy and stop buying LSH volumes. If I buy the KK archive and dislike it, I won't have ill will towards DC since it was my decision to buy it.

Second, if the argument is that the material isn't strong enough to support its own volume, then I have to suggest that it isn't worth reprinting.

The larger issue is that it doesn't seem fair to intentionally combine weaker material into volumes with stronger material in the hopes of making the weaker material sellable. It may work once or twice, but it will drive away customers. I am against doing this where it is possible to separate out separate features to be archived individually.

posted January 25, 2003 11:47 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ?:
Heck, I'll buy 'em regardless.

I just like the Legion.

---

posted January 25, 2003 01:23 PM               

As we've already seen in the JLA Archives (and there are probably other examples out there that I've forgotten), we didn't get to see the build-up to the story that was in #51 (JLA Archives 7). This has already set a precedence for not having all parts of a continued story in one Archive. Granted, it wasn't the tight, interwoven story that most comics had developed into by the 1970's, but there it stands alone without the other components of it's complete story.

It gets trickier with KK and SLOSH, since it becomes harder to 'objectively' say what issues of KK had the 'sufficient' number of guest LOSHers to 'justfy' including that issue in a LOSH Archive. Since there seems to be a reluntance (for readers, since that too has happened) for duplicating stories in multiple archives, what would be the 'line in the sand' for a reader wishing for numerous KK stories being in the LOSH Archives, that would then be against buying them again in a potential KK Archive series?

And how to place the issues of KK in a LOSH Archive? Even internal to the individual Archive books themselves, they still try to stay as 'chronological' as possible. Do you put 2 issues of KK (lets say, 2 x 18 pages+cover) at the back of the book, so they don't disturb the flow of reading a four part Legion tale that took place in corresponding publication months? Or do you put parts 1 and 2 of the LOS story, then 1 issue of KK, followed by the remaining 2 parts of the LOSH story, then the second KK issue? I've seen both ways (that is, with KK included) mapped, and both look awkward.

Cass

posted January 25, 2003 08:34 PM            

I own the full run of Karate Kid ... sorry guys ... but it stinks! I consider myself a HUGE Legion fan (S&LSH #203 was my first comic book! My wife even used her sewing skills to make me a Legion flag for my birthday a few years back!) ... but BELIEVE ME, the archives DO NOT need to reprint the full run of Karate Kid!

If DC won't reprint the series, I'm sure you can find the entire run DIRT CHEAP either at a comic shop or on eBay (that's how I got my issues of KK).

Karate Kid is not worth reprinting in a $49.95 harcover volume.

What would be next? Reprinting all the L.E.G.I.O.N. stories in future LSH archives?

That's my opinion for what it is worth!

------------------
exredleg

"Commitment isn't a chore, it's a challenge."