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 Legion Archives Vol. 12 (Page 7)
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| Author | Topic: Legion Archives Vol. 12 |
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quincyjb Member |
posted July 25, 2002 05:38 PM
  
The posts to this thread are slowing down, so here is an attempt to tally the responses. This tally is subject to error since in many cases I inferred the voter's intent. Include all issues (25); include some (12); include none (11); include all or none (2) Here is the raw data: INCLUDE ALL INCLUDE NONE INCLUDE SOME INCLUDE EITHER ALL OR NONE IP: Logged |
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Wayne1776 Member |
posted July 25, 2002 05:58 PM
I still have to say no on including ALL of KK. Even though a Legionnaire appears in a story it doesn't make that story archivable. This is not setting any kind of new trend in selecting materials for LSH Archives: there are Mon-el appearances in Jimmy Olsen, and Action Comics; Chameleon Boy in Superboy 92 (?). LSH in Lois Lane 50, and Superman 149 for one or two panels. LSH in Superman 152, 156 & 162, and others, etc. These appearances are not included in the LSH Archives. Flow of the reprint series (LSH Archives) Karate Kid # 1, absolutely. The remainder of the series - probably not- at least an issue-by-issue decision. KK #1 is of at least historical importance because it is representative of the 1st solo Legionnaire to sustain a series outside of the LSH proper (excluding Supergirl/Superboy, of course.) IP: Logged |
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Bgztl Member |
posted July 25, 2002 06:37 PM
Count me in the "some" camp. If the other Legionnaires played some part I think it is Archivable. That should include Karate Kid # 1, shouldn't it? It's been a long time and my brother sold that one long ago, but I seem to remember them guest-starring in some of the issues. IP: Logged |
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Bgztl Member |
posted July 25, 2002 06:40 PM
quote:
Thanks, outpost. I forgot you posted this before I put in my own clueless entry about the Legion's guest appearances. IP: Logged |
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Corrosive Kid Member |
posted July 25, 2002 06:50 PM
quote: Where-oh-where did this appear? Just for the anal-retentive among us. IP: Logged |
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Corrosive Kid Member |
posted July 25, 2002 06:53 PM
quote: Hopefully this means that they've heard our cries for a Silver Age Superman Archives. The shouts for a Silver Age Batman were fewer and further between, and they got their wish, so why can't we? IP: Logged |
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Corrosive Kid Member |
posted July 25, 2002 06:54 PM
quote: Hopefully this means that they've heard our cries for a Silver Age Superman Archives. The shouts for a Silver Age Batman were fewer and further between, and they got their wish, so why can't we? IP: Logged |
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Corrosive Kid Member |
posted July 25, 2002 06:55 PM
Bloody flood control. Screws up everything. IP: Logged |
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Marty Raap Member |
posted July 25, 2002 06:56 PM
But, Wayne1776, there's a difference between KK and the examples you cite. If the Legion has a cameo in Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane or Superman, those are still primarily stories of Jimmy Olsen or Lois Lane or Superman, and don't belong in a Legion Archive unless the Legion appearance is really momentous. I've got no problem with these stories being omitted from Legion and eventually included in Jimmy's or Lois' or Superman's Archives. KK is a Legion spin-off -- it's a Legion mini-series, really, even though it's kind of long at 15 issues. The Legion Archives are the place for material that is entirely Legion-based, even if the story focuses on only one Legionnaire. The only really gray area I see in this theory are the Superboy/Supergirl stories, but the area isn't really that gray. Even though those characters are Legionnaires, they were primarily based in their own series and got Legion membership as an outgrowth of their own popularity. Also, both these characters have already warranted Archives, so the Legion stories from their runs will eventually appear in their Archives. The KK material will probably not be Archived unless it appears in Legion. I don't want DC to start cherry-picking stories based on content; if it's relevant to the Archive, it should be included. I'm happy to see that the voting is strongly in favor of including all KK. The best policy for DC from an historical/completist/archival perspective and popularity appear to be converging here. IP: Logged |
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Wayne1776 Member |
posted July 25, 2002 07:18 PM
Hola! Corrosive Kid, The house ad I mentioned appeared in Wonder Woman #133, October 1962. I would assume it appeared elsewhere, but I only have it in that issue. It is page after the letters and I wish I had a scanner, I would email it to you... The cover of Adventure Comics # 300 is upper left and the panels surrounding Superboy - who you remember is centered - are numbered 1 - 6 left to right.They are identified upper right of the cover repro: 1. Sun Boy 2. Saturn Girl 3. Cosmic Boy 4. Lightning Lad 5. Triplicate Girl and 6. Mon-el. Under that is the text, "In the city of METROPOLIS, in the 21st century, there exists one of the most amazing clubs of all time! Its members are teen-aged youths, each possessing at least one special super-power. They are known throughout the universe as . . . The Legion of Super-Heroes! Under the cover is the text: "They battle fantastic foes of time and space- [b]and Of course, all the text was in caps and several different fonts were used. It deserves a page in a LSH Archive because of its historical importance, as in the beginning of the Legions's history, the editors and writers did have touble with the placement of the series. (IMO, it was always meant to be 1000 years future.) Wayne IP: Logged |
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quincyjb Member |
posted July 25, 2002 07:55 PM
Marty Raap wrote: quote: Strongly in favor? By my unofficial tally, 25 of 50 want the full KK run. Throwing in the 2 all-or-nothing votes gives 27 voters. That leaves 23 voters, or 46 percent of the target audience, that currently do not think the entire run should be included. IP: Logged |
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DStepp Member |
posted July 25, 2002 08:38 PM
Also, it should be considered that we are a specialized class of Archive readers. The bias among us by and large is to Archive as much as possible. I would imagine the more generalized Archive used might have more selective tastes, enough to tilt the balance in the opposite direction. It might be worthwhile for this to be brought up at the SDCC Collected Editions panel to see what a more generalized (though probably still somewhat biased) population might think. D. ------------------ The Comics Archives - The Source of Record of Golden Age DC The Comics Archives II - A significant repository of Silver Age information The DC Archives Home Page - A resource for DC's Archive Editions IP: Logged |
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Triplicate Boy Member |
posted July 25, 2002 09:13 PM
DStepp stole the words out of my mouth. If you are on the archives board, you are an archives fanatic. It is the "casual" reader (though at $50 a pop it's hardly casual) who fades as series continue. And these people are going to buy LEGION archives and feel ripped off because half the book is crappy kung fu comics. The fact that KAMANDI has to be reprinted points to how off-target the KK reprints would be...and the Kamandi itself, IIRC, is the 1st of an unfinished 2-parter! IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted July 25, 2002 09:29 PM
By the time you get to the twelfth volume of a series, how many casual fans are left? Can there be more than a hundred or so folks who will pick up the volume based on the cover alone, without buying the other volumes first? These things are shrink-wrapped, remember? It's not like they will flip thru it and see Grell art (or whomever) and say "Holy Cow! I've got to have this; the other 11 volumes be damned!". And on the flip side, they aren't going to flip thru it and say "WTF?! Karate Kid?! I'm not buying this!" I'll wager that over 90% of the sales of this volume will be by people who own the prior volume. People just don't tend to pick up numbered series in the middle. IP: Logged |
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quincyjb Member |
posted July 25, 2002 11:18 PM
I can only speak for myself. If the decision is made to include the full KK run embedded in the LSH archives, I will stop buying them. I may come back for the Earthwar story, but hopefully KK will be done by then. I skipped the volume that reprinted the final stories of the Adventure run and the backup series from Action. I came back for the most recent volume. Given that these things cost $35 each, I make it a point to learn the contents before buying. Likewise, I will skip the JLA volumes reprinting the stories after Fox and before Wein. That material just isn't very good. IP: Logged |
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Joe Pacheco Member |
posted July 25, 2002 11:30 PM
I don't agree that all readers start with #1 and then fall off as they go along. I started buying Legion Archives with the new costumes in vol. 10. I've gone back to vol. 6 but I'm not that driven to keep going back. I'd much rather be buying vol. 12-20. As lines run longer and styles change, old readers will drop and new readers will jump on board (see Dynamic Duo). IP: Logged |
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Corrosive Kid Member |
posted July 25, 2002 11:42 PM
We all need to remember that DC is in business to make a buck, not out of some altruistic need to reprint old material. If watering down the Legion Archive series with substandard Karate Kid material torpedoes Legion sales, then they can't do it. That's why I'm in favor of giving purchasers of the Legion Archives a taste of KK material, and then taking it from there. Seventeen issues is a lot. We're not talking about a cameo appearance here and there; we're talking about something which will usurp the rightful 'owner' of the archive series. If a Legion archive reprints eight issues and three of them are Karate Kid's, then I see that franchise losing momentum and suffering lower sales as a result of it. (Never mind the fact that it would still leave over a dozen KK's to go through). If they could sprinkle them in, that would be one thing, but there comes a point at which the end of the KK series crosses over into LSH (sometime during the Earth War), so they'd all have to be reprinted by then. That means copious amounts of Karate Kid all around. The question which DC has to ask itself is "Is reprinting the entire Karate Kid series worth risking the Legion Archives franchise over?" If it was me, I'd have to say no. IP: Logged |
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Marty Raap Member |
posted July 26, 2002 12:51 AM
I'm perplexed as to the argument that the voting so far isn't strongly in favor of including all of KK. The votes in favor of "all" equal the votes for "some," "none," and "all or none" COMBINED. Put another way: All = 50% The people who want at least some KK equal 74% of the vote. If DC was swayed by this overwhelming majority in favor of KK, then the "all/none" people convert to "all," which makes a solid majority of 54% for "all." "None" is a solid minority of 22%. You can't expect much more persuasive numbers than that in a poll on just about any issue, especially this one. This is a divisive question -- if it was easy, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The popularity rating of a political figure, say, is considered very solid if it hits 60%. You can't make everyone happy no matter what the question, and understanding that, these numbers come out much more strongly for KK than I had anticipated. We can't expect DC to ask our opinion and then ignore the results. I'll make you "none" voters a deal -- I'll try and get past my displeasure with time-jumping an Archive (Batman: DD) if you guys try and live with KK in Legion. DC can't please everyone on every question that arises, but they should focus on pleasing the majority. IP: Logged |
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Marty Raap Member |
posted July 26, 2002 12:58 AM
Just a footnote -- before someone points it out, I realize, of course, that 50% isn't a majority in an overall sense. But looking at the rankings of all 4 options, it's more than double the second-closest option. In that sense, there's a solid preference of the "all" option over any one of the other 3 options and indeed, as I pointed out, it equals the other 3 combined. IP: Logged |
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Pig Iron Member |
posted July 26, 2002 01:09 AM
It should atleast include the key issues of KK. But then that would make it incomplete. The Legion archives is a finite series in my mind. You may as well get a much as you can up to the Great Darkness era... Why not reprint it? The series as it stands now is reprinting relatively inexpensive and available comics. It really isn't that hard or expensive to get the 70's issues. It might cost $30.00 to get the original issues in decent condition reprinted for $50.00 in archive format. So I don't understand why everyone is complaining. At this point isn't the legion series of archives for completists anyway? I can see no other logical reason to pay $50.00 for the reprints of said material... I'm for The entire KK run ... IP: Logged |
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richardam Member |
posted July 26, 2002 02:43 AM
Add me to the some side of this vote.I can see reprinting issue 1,but not the others.Thet would delay the reprinting of more actual LSH stories.Also,I read and remember them-which means despite my admiration for Levitz LSH,Idid not find the Karate Kid issues very well done. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted July 26, 2002 02:50 AM
Ok. Everyone has expressed their own personal preference in terms of what they'd like the volumes they want to buy to contain. Now try answering these questions with as little reference to your own personal preferences as you can: Conversely, is there a real possibility that leaving out the whole KK series will negatively impact sales of the LSH Archives? What do you think the smart move here is? IP: Logged |
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datalore Member |
posted July 26, 2002 08:27 AM
To counter what was said above... ...I have all these issues, including the Karate Kid ones, and if they DON'T include the Karate Kid issues, I'll stop buying the archives, because the Archives will no longer be what they claim to be, which is a gathering of stories of the Legion and Legion members... ...to be honest, not including the Karate Kid issues would be as bad as... ...not including the solo Princess Projectra story from 233...or the Mon-El story from 235... Karate Kid IS a Legion member...his series IS the first spin-off FROM the Legion series (that is historical in and of itself...) At the very least, we have 74% wanting some, enough to merit at least issue 1 in Volume 12. I'd have no problem, if DC included a survey card IN Volume 12 (or even just an address to send votes to) ASKING the Archive buyer to tell us what they want... (Oh, and issue 10 has Val, Jeckie and the LEGION in the 30th century, and leads into S&LSH 231, and has a villain who appeared in Superboy 210...so AT LEAST that, along with 1 would merit inclusion...) IP: Logged |
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Nightcrawler Member |
posted July 26, 2002 09:04 AM
quote: I'll say it again. The SMART move is to include the Karate Kid issues! I get a lot of pleasure being able to reference all my Legion stories without pulling my fragile, newsprinted comics out of their plastic. It was a pain in the butt to thumb through the series for this thread. IP: Logged |
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jape Member |
posted July 26, 2002 09:17 AM
If something is an archive, it needs to be complete almost by definition. That's why the 'some' option just isn't a flyer as far as I'm concerned. It's the same reason I don't like the idea of a Batgirl archive that cherrypicks selected stores from Batman, Detective, World's Finest etc. No Karate Kid stories is far better in this context than a partial collection. IP: Logged |
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