posted July 26, 2002 10:38 AM               

I've been waiting for the reprinting of the Levitz era, frankly, and never was nearly as enthralled by what came before. Anything that pushes off the early Levitz issues of the Legion -- and these ARE the Legion Archives -- is going to lose DC an Archives customer. Or, at the very least, postpone my becoming one by two or more years.

The most I could see, from the notes I've gathered, is the undeniable tie-in of many more than one Legion member, other than Val, and that's issue 1 of "Karate Kid." Any reprinting of more than those should have its own TPB. We're not talking a side excursion into four "Legionnaires 3," or three "Secrets," or four "Cosmic Boy," but more than a year of its own continuity.

Quite beside all this: We're talking about the LEGION. And "legion" means many, many more than one character. I wouldn't see any sidebar adventure that involved no more than one Legionnaire, essentially, to be a genuine tale of the LEGION. It's a tale of that character.

(And in regard to this last, even the Cosmic Boy mini had both a major foe, the Time Trapper, and a far-from-minimal supporting Legion player, Night Girl, along with the centerpiece of Rokk Krinn.)

posted July 26, 2002 12:52 PM               

I only bought the last two--I'm a HUGE fan of the Cockrum era stories (particularly the art and new costumes), but will more than likely eventually collect the Jim Shooter/Curt Swan Archives.

Here's my honest response to the questions posted a few messages back:

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Is there a real possibility that including all the KK issues in the Legion sequence will adversely affect the sales of the volumes that they contain?

Yes. I remember the KK series and bought the first two issues. The first is very good and fits nicely into Legion history. I would avoid an archive that printed all of those lame KK stories.

How likely is this?
If it happens, will that lost sales volume be recovered in subsequent archives volumes?

Hey, I'm not Dream Girl, but I'm sure DC would rather not chance the lost income.

Conversely, is there a real possibility that leaving out the whole KK series will negatively impact sales of the LSH Archives?

Hardly. I don't think many people ever expected the Karate Kid issues to be Archived anyway.

How strong is this possibility?
How will sales on future volumes be affected?

Not at all, I'd guess. Either you want the archives or you don't.

What do you think the smart move here is?

As I've stated from the beginning. Include KK #1. If any other issues exist that are important to Legion history, include them.

posted July 26, 2002 12:58 PM               

Including the whole KK series seems to me to be a significant sales risk. Even using as many issues as I'd like to see included may be risky.
Leaving the whole series out is, I think, either no risk at all or a small one.

posted July 26, 2002 02:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by profh0011:
How about if we settle this with a KARATE KID TPB??? Something cheap enough to fit a "2nd rate" spin-off series, for those who would like to read the stories without busting their wallets. (I'm kinda guessing that if the original issues probably are pretty cheap by today's back-issue prices-- if you can find them.)

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IF you can find them...

...but, if they AREN'T included...likely as hard as they are now to find, they'll be impossible soon (I know 5 Michigan comics stores that have been in business long enough to have Karate Kids, and haven't seen ANY KK's in any of them in years!)

Now, something else to consider...

...Karate Kid is the FIRST series to COME FROM Legion, and isn't that a historical event in and of itself?

And, I'm more than willing to let it be decided by the folks buying the Archives...include KK #1 in Volume 12, and ASK the Archive BUYERS to send responses if they want (or don't want) more! (Not only does KK #1 have THE LEGION in it, it has Nemesis Kid...a LEGION VILLAIN, who appeared both BEFORE and AFTER this appearance...)

posted July 26, 2002 03:36 PM            

I was impressed with KK. In a lot of ways, this is the place where Levitz shows what he can do. It's not a martial arts book. Martial arts is what Val does, but the book is about the characters--the old fish out of water scenario. And it's one of the first DC books to do character driven continued storylines. A trend that would grow with books like Warlord and New Teen Titans, and eventually Legion itself.

Now if KK gets reprinted, it will probably only take up a small amount of space in the volumes. One story in vol. 12. Maybe three in 13, and so on. I don't see this as the real problem for some consumers. The real problem is that this will extend the number of volumes of LSH before the archives can get around to the good Levitz.

posted July 26, 2002 05:06 PM            

If DC thought including KK would kill sales for Legion, I'm sure it wouldn't even be on the table for consideration. Seeing how successful the Archive line has been, I have great faith in DC's ability to manage the economics of the line, so I don't concern myself with that. DC surely has better sales information than we do, and undoubtedly more expertise in handling that information.

My sense of the economics, for what little it's worth, is that the line is much more robust than some people seem to believe. That's why we've seen Archives like Black Canary, Doom Patrol, Enemy Ace, et al., and these Archives have apparently been successful. Thankfully, DC has exhibited faith that lesser-known material can sell in Archive form, and that faith appears to have been rewarded. If anything, including KK in Legion seems much less risky, because the Legion stories support the KK material. My guess is that virtually everyone who would buy Legion #12 would do so whether or not KK is included, with only a small (virtually insignificant) percentage refusing to buy Legion #12 with KK and an equal percentage refusing to buy without KK.

posted July 26, 2002 05:07 PM               

How embarassing. I think I have been responding to something I inferred rather than something you actually wrote. You never claimed there was a strong majority in favor of "all". <sigh>

posted July 26, 2002 06:28 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Marty Raap:
I don't think speculation about the economics of the Archive line is really helpful to this discussion. I'm sure Mr. Greenberger didn't solicit our opinion because he wants us to act as accountants and advise DC on how to run their business. The opinion that is being solicited, I presume, is how a bunch of knowledgeable and enthusiastic fans feel about including KK from an aesthetic standpoint.

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Couldn't agree more. Like I said in my first post on this matter, the mere mention of KK from the mouth of Bob G. seems to imply that the saleability of those comics isn't in questoin. The question is, does DC, if at all, shoehorn KK into the Legion Archives line. If so, to what extent.

quote:

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Seeing how successful the Archive line has been, I have great faith in DC's ability to manage the economics of the line, so I don't concern myself with that. DC surely has better sales information than we do, and undoubtedly more expertise in handling that information.[/B]

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Amen! I have faith in DC, too...look at the little empire they've built with DC Archives. Think of all the good decisions, foresight, and stick-to-it-iveness that was necessary to get to this point, and then compare to other contemporaries. Not even close....

I think the best question to ask people would be: at what point would you NOT buy a Legion Archives to the extent that it included KK? Many people would complain loudly and buy anyway...we know that much is true. The Archives itch is a tough one to scratch once it's spread to a full rash. If 20-25% of Legion Archives was KK material, would that be a deterrent?

I say include the material if it's not likely to get its own Archive within the normal span of time that Legion Archives would move past it. Imagine a month where we would get not only, say, Legion Archives Vol. 13, but KK Archives and some sort of KK statue or bust or whatever cross-promotional push they could give it? I could see KK being one of those extra Archives in a given year we keep talking about, if it's released in the context of a seperate Legion Archives.

posted July 26, 2002 06:37 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by NecessaryImpurity:
By the time you get to the twelfth volume of a series, how many casual fans are left?

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posted July 26, 2002 07:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by India Ink:
Here's the conundrum. Levitz wrote KK and he wrote Legion.

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That's not entirely true. Levitz wrote KK # 1, and that's it. Barry Jameson may have been a pen name, but it wasn't Levitz. He told me as much himself once (he didn't tell me who it was, though).

posted July 26, 2002 07:24 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Corrosive Kid:
That's not entirely true. Levitz wrote KK # 1, and that's it. Barry Jameson may have been a pen name, but it wasn't Levitz. He told me as much himself once (he didn't tell me who it was, though).

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posted July 26, 2002 07:47 PM            

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, my recollection of those KK issues (and I haven't seen ANY of them in at least ten years, I admit) is that they aren't quite worth the format. Thus, their inclusion would lower the "true value" of the collection for me, though I would buy it anyway.

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"My name is Mark....Question Mark..."

posted July 26, 2002 07:57 PM               

Put together ordinary Legion Archives volumes containing the usual amount of material from the regular Legion title.
Then insert, as extra pages, the Karate Kid stories in their appropriate sequence.
This costs DC a little extra money, I'd imagine almost entirely for printing and paper. But it keeps sales steady.
It placates those readers who don't want to pay archive prices for a series they consider inferior or peripheral and may not want at all.
And it entirely satisfies those who want the Ktrate Kid material.

posted July 27, 2002 12:35 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by James Friel:
I have what may be a satisfactory solutiom for everyone.

Put together ordinary Legion Archives volumes containing the usual amount of material from the regular Legion title.
Then insert, as extra pages, the Karate Kid stories in their appropriate sequence.
This costs DC a little extra money, I'd imagine almost entirely for printing and paper.

---

Of course it's a great idea! Something for nothing...who doesn't like that?

Bob Greenberger is coming over from Marvel, where he reportedly put together an over 265 page Iron Man Masterworks Vol. 2. I don't know how many of those pages one would consider free, but that's far more pages in one book than you would consider might be in a typical DC Archives. Maybe Bob will have a similar latitude at beefing up the page contents....who knows?

(Side note...we still await publication of the Iron Man book )

posted July 27, 2002 05:08 AM               

KK can either get a TPB release, his own Archive (Legion Archive 12B maybe ) or something else.

Maybe we can call it something else and collect all the Legion side-projects in their own Archive-style editions. KK, Cosmic Boy, Legionnaries 3, Legion of Substitute Heroes, etc.
Legionnaries Archives maybe?

posted July 27, 2002 06:58 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Osgood Peabody:
I think it was David Michelinie.

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I think you're right.

posted July 27, 2002 11:25 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael C Lorah:
My two cents is that the Legion Archives should be for the Legion.
Archives, by their nature, are supposed to be complete, so no picking and choosing select KK issues either.

KK can either get a TPB release, his own Archive (Legion Archive 12B maybe ) or something else.

Maybe we can call it something else and collect all the Legion side-projects in their own Archive-style editions. KK, Cosmic Boy, Legionnaries 3, Legion of Substitute Heroes, etc.
Legionnaries Archives maybe?

Legion Archives, however, should remain for the Legion core.

---

I'm starting to lean this way myself. Come to think of it, a LOT of very important Legion appearances have not been reprinted thus far because they aren't "core". Even back in Vol. 1, the early Superboy tale where Colossal Boy rescues him from a "kryptonite golem" of sorts was left out, even though the story made the cut over in the Adventure Comics reprints in the eighties. So precedent says leave KK out.

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"My name is Mark....Question Mark..."