posted June 12, 2002 08:51 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by positronic:
Although I haven't been keeping strict track of the reprinted volumes, Marvel has given us 5 new volumes since the beginning of 2001: FF Vol. 6, DAREDEVIL Vol. 2, X-MEN Vol. 3, THOR Vol. 3, and SUB-MARINER Vol. 1. I've no idea if the previously-solicited IRON MAN Vol. 2 will actually come out this month (after all, so far it's only missed its ship date by a week, which isn't that unusual by Marvel standards). I'm not sure what you mean by "one actual (very late) new volume". Seems like you're being a little harsh here, in light of the actual facts. While it's true previously-announced things like NICK FURY may now not show up for quite a while, at least give them credit for the 5 (possibly 6, depending on IRON MAN) new volumes that they have produced.

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posted June 12, 2002 09:07 AM               

Now with that being said, I don't know why they don't put out the number 1 volumes of the books that only had one previous volume and then start making new volumes of those while still reprinting Spidey and FF. I could definately see something along the lines of this:

Spiderman 1
X-men 1
Sub Mariner 1
Avengers 1
Iron Man 1
Spiderman 2
Fantastic Four 1
Thor 1
Captain America 1
Nick Fury 1
X-men 2
Hulk 1
Spiderman 3
Iron Man 2
Fantastic Four 2
Avengers 2
etc. etc. etc.

This way by the second year you are caught up on at least three series, Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America. And by the end of the third year you have caught up on Thor and the Avengers. And by the fourth year the only volumes you are reprinting are Spidey and the FF. This way you put out 2 new volumes in Year 1 (Subby, Nick Fury) and four new volumes in year 2 (Iron Man 2, Cap 2, Captain Marvel 1, Golden Age Human Torch 1 [or whatever]).

posted June 12, 2002 09:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Scippio:
As someone who started collecting Masterworks with the new reprinting of Spiderman vol 1 and is primarily interested in Spiderman and Fantastic Four, this is really good news. It was very disheartening to see that they had solicited FF vol 7 yet vols 1-6 would take years to come out, so if they stoped the Masterworks program in a couple of years my collection could potentially be FF vols 1,2,7,8 and Spidey vols 1,2,3,6,7 and I would have to track the other volumes down on Ebay and spend $100 to $500 each for them and they would have a different dust jacket design from they other volumes I had.

Now with that being said, I don't know why they don't put out the number 1 volumes of the books that only had one previous volume and then start making new volumes of those while still reprinting Spidey and FF. I could definately see something along the lines of this:

Spiderman 1
X-men 1
Sub Mariner 1
Avengers 1
Iron Man 1
Spiderman 2
Fantastic Four 1
Thor 1
Captain America 1
Nick Fury 1
X-men 2
Hulk 1
Spiderman 3
Iron Man 2
Fantastic Four 2
Avengers 2
etc. etc. etc.

This way by the second year you are caught up on at least three series, Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America. And by the end of the third year you have caught up on Thor and the Avengers. And by the fourth year the only volumes you are reprinting are Spidey and the FF. This way you put out 2 new volumes in Year 1 (Subby, Nick Fury) and four new volumes in year 2 (Iron Man 2, Cap 2, Captain Marvel 1, Golden Age Human Torch 1 [or whatever]).

This seems the best way to balance the needs of new and old fans alike. The old fans get an increasing number of new volumes each year and the new fans get to pick up the books in order.

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posted June 12, 2002 11:15 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by stoter1:

I feel kind of bad for those fans who have been paying all this money for Masterworks and will now be able to get them for 50 bucks. what a jip...

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posted June 12, 2002 12:15 PM               

1- The first series which began in 1987 with #1 being Spider-Man, continued with its last volume, #27-Avengers in 1993. The Marvel Masterworks were terminated at the time because of what were perceived as poor sales. To add some perspective to this, the DC Archives had built up to a level of 5 volumes a year by 1993. However, times must have been similarly tough for them, because in 1994 they slimmed down production to 3 volumes, 2 in 1995, and 2 in 1996. 1997 saw only 3 volumes, and from there the DC Archives has seen slow and steady progress to the monthly status it now enjoys.

2- Coinciding with the burgeoning health of the DC Archives, Marvel brought some old Masterworks back into print- the first volumes each of X-Men, FF, Avengers, and Spider-Man. These were in the second of three trade-dresses, what is known as the ComicCraft trade dress. As I recall, these were met with howls from many quarters as ugly and cheesy. Despite the aesthetic quality of the trade dress (which is a subjective argument at any rate), there were some other problems with the trade dress that were terminal. This lack of foresight at the time is key, because it is this error that will cause the most grief as time rolls on. In the meantime, there are a few new volumes printed in this 2nd trade dress. The FF #51-60 sells relatively spectacularly in direct market pre-orders (for a variety of reasons) and following volumes by Thor, DD and X-Men sell with mixed results.

3- The third and (final?) trade dress is unveiled in early 2002. What has been lacking all along was a total commitment from the boys upstairs. From what I understand, Quesada likes the Masterworks, Jemas does not. But finally, editors Brevoort and Greenberger get the command from upstairs "Let's do this thing full tilt!" So with the command to go full steam ahead came a "redressing" of old grievances- the ComicCraft trade dress, which in the words of one of the editors of the line "sucked" had to go. And it went. An error was made here, too, when a pie-in-the-sky judgement of a 6/6 release schedule was committed to. Presumably in the months that followed, the editors were met with howls of disapproval, such as "how the hell do you expect me to sell Iron Man #2 when I don't even have Iron Man #1 in stock? Screw you!" I know of a few retailers who are hesitant to stock Masterworks for this and similar reasons. Oh, and also, Bob Greenberger, one of the guiding hands behind the revamp, was let go by Marvel.

Anyways, these are mostly facts and some presumptions made upon said facts. What you have here is a sorry history created by more than a few different regimes presiding over a bankrupt company with a different appreciation for really expensive hardcovers than DC Comics has/had. These aren't meant to be excuses for Marvel's handling of the Masterworks programs, but simply a timeline pointing out their decision making processes.

posted June 12, 2002 12:38 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by stoter1:

I dont think that anyone at all is being Harsh with Marvel. They have acted witha complete and total disregard for their fans, and I for one am pissed. As someone here indicated, I did not begin buying Archives until I was sure that the line was viable because I did not want to invest a large amount in a series that would have its plug pulled after a few volumes. I am proud to say that DC has not let me down. My collection of Archives is flourishing and even were DC to stop producing Archives at this point, someone could jump on board and have a rather nice sampling of Golden Age Batman, Superman, All Star and a nice Silver Age collection of Justice League, Green Lanter, and World's Finest. I am a recent Archives and Masterworks collector. In the last three months I have purchased over 25 Archives and in the last week, 7 Masterworks. I am appalled by this recent development.

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posted June 12, 2002 12:50 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dylanfan:
Anyways, these are mostly facts and some presumptions made upon said facts. What you have here is a sorry history created by more than a few different regimes presiding over a bankrupt company with a different appreciation for really expensive hardcovers than DC Comics has/had. These aren't meant to be excuses for Marvel's handling of the Masterworks programs, but simply a timeline pointing out their decision making processes.

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A fair summation. BUT, don't discount the bankruptcy years (which was a *huge* problem, and one that the company still hasn't completely gotten over), and the "took many cooks" shifting editors/publishing plans regimes. I think many fans just naturally assume that because THEY are really hot for the Masterworks program, that it just *ought* to be a priority for Marvel. But businesses aren't run on the whims of a relatively small group like us. DC was more stable during this time period and could afford to slowly nurture its fragile flower through the drought. Frankly, I loved the ComiCraft TD and was sorry to see it go, but I'll take my Masterworks as I can get 'em.

posted June 12, 2002 01:06 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:
Actually, pos, my impression is that these days most of the profit, other than from licensing, in comics publishing comes at the reprint end if it's done right.

Still, I agree with most of what you say here.

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It's certainly working out for DC and Dark Horse. But, they've always been more oriented in that direction. Marvel, in case anyone hasn't noticed, is more concerned with grabbing a chunk of newer, younger readers. And to a certain extent, that's always been the case at Marvel - but nowadays, it seems, moreso than ever. Diversification is a GOOD thing, but Marvel can't seem to focus on more than one or two things at a time, to judge by what's going on. After all these years, they're just *now* beginning to go after a chunk of Vertigo's market, as well. For many years now, they've had tunnelvision, and it doesn't help that Jemas and Quesada are often at odds with each other. Take a look at the number of books DC publishes every month vs. the number Marvel publishes. Then look at the range of titles DC publishes, from Scooby-Doo and Powerpuff Girls to 100 Bullets and Lucifer, plus independent-y and traditional superhero mainstream stuff. They are shooting for just about every demographic they can. Traditionally, Marvel's mainstream superheroes have always sold better, but then traditionally, there's been very little BUT mainstream superheroes from Marvel. It's as if they were cruising around, from the late '80s to the mid-'90s, with an "This ship is [i]unsinkable![/i" attitude. Frankly, they'd been doing mainstream, teen-to-twentysomething-aimed monthly comics for so long, they forgot how to do anything else.

posted June 12, 2002 06:50 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:
Actually, pos, my impression is that these days most of the profit, other than from licensing, in comics publishing comes at the reprint end if it's done right.

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And aside from the Masterworks program, how about this new hardcover venture of theirs? In the last 4 months they have published and solicited several HC volumes of mainly recent stuff- Origin, DD: Yellow, the first 12 issues of Ultimate Spider-Man, first 12 issues of Ultimate X-Men, the complete 16 issue run of Ultimate Team-Up, the Best of Spider-Man 2001 (about 14 issues of continuity), Punisher, Alias (one of their MAX titles), and heck, I might be leaving a few out of the list....based on the numbers these books are generating, Marvel's reprint program IS making headway. The Origin HC sold 11,641 in direct market pre-orders alone! If their trades are doing very well, too, then I wonder if perhaps the Masterworks aren't being treated like poor little step-children. Too much trouble to put alot of time and effort into?

I dunno...this is just musing on my part. The Masterworks program needs a firm, capable hand guiding it, with foresight and a well-developed, comprehensive plan. Someone to reassure fans and retailers and to produce quality books. It was Tom Brevoort and Bob Greenberger that took over the revamp....now Bob G. is gone, Tom (as far as I know) is no longer in an official capacity with the line, and from what I hear about Marvel's waif-thin staff, I wonder if that person even exists?

posted June 12, 2002 07:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dylanfan:
The Masterworks program needs a firm, capable hand guiding it, with foresight and a well-developed, comprehensive plan. Someone to reassure fans and retailers and to produce quality books.

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If they were to hire me, and give me the backing, I'd start over from scratch. Just from the look of the art in my Spidey MW, they need to go down the restoration path. Even tho' they may have the material on hand to print any of the existing Masterworks, I'd toss it. Yes, the expense is pretty significant up front, but the DC ethic is the one the Masterworks program needs to adopt. This isn't a fast buck grab; it may not even be profitable in and of itself. What it is, is an excuse to get this vast library of material into a reprint-friendly form, so they can continue to generate revenue from the library far into the future. Should the Archive/Masterwork program actually cover the restoration, so much the better.

I have to wonder if one of the drivers behind the DC Archive project is the coming copyright expirations. Someday, these guys will be unable to convince Congress to extend the copyright window, and the old material will start to pass into the public domain. However, if DC has a high-quality, easy to reprint library, they will pretty much take the wind out of any small press that tries to re-issue its inventory of Golden Age DC. DC could flood the market with a better version of the material, at pennies above cost, and keep those other presses at bay.

posted June 12, 2002 10:00 PM            

Also responding to a later positronic post, he is certainly correct that Marvel owes us no new Masterworks at all. But what I think Marvel DOES owe us -- what I expect from any person or company I associate with -- is that they should keep their word. They shouldn't promise something they're not prepared to deliver, especially when they've broken so many promises on this topic already.

posted June 13, 2002 12:28 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Marty Raap:
Also responding to a later positronic post, he is certainly correct that Marvel owes us no new Masterworks at all. But what I think Marvel DOES owe us -- what I expect from any person or company I associate with -- is that they should keep their word. They shouldn't promise something they're not prepared to deliver, especially when they've broken so many promises on this topic already.

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posted June 13, 2002 12:39 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by dylanfan:
The Origin HC sold 11,641 in direct market pre-orders alone! If their trades are doing very well, too, then I wonder if perhaps the Masterworks aren't being treated like poor little step-children. Too much trouble to put alot of time and effort into?

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dylanfan, much of what you said (not quoted above) makes a great deal of sense. I just wanted to add, though, that my retailer received 10 copies of the ORIGIN hardcover (the miniseries sold extremely well for him) last week. This week when I came in, most (perhaps even all) of them were still sitting on his shelf. It's worth noting (I did not read past issue #3 myself) that people who I've talked to, even though they committed to buying the entire series, were less than enthusiastic about it from a critical standpoint. Seems like a lot of sound & fury, signifying nothing. That said, it's easy to see that Marvel seems to be focusing their efforts on reprinting hot miniseries and story-arcs of a very recent nature. I just wonder how much of the wind goes out of them after the final chapter has shipped.

posted June 13, 2002 05:21 PM               

UNCANNY X-MEN: MARVEL MASTERWORKS Vol. 3 (#22-31)
Fun, if "average" stories of Marvel's "Hard-Luck" Heroes ***

Writer Roy Thomas & artist Werner Roth had a tough act to follow when they became the regular creative team on X-MEN in the mid-60's (following Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and-- at times-- Chic Stone). These early stories may come as a shock to anyone used to the overly-complex, darkly angst-ridden nightmare world that the ever-growing number of X-books have become over the last 25 years. They tend to finish in 1 or 2 issues, and Roth's art is almost refreshingly "clean", light and upbeat! With most of Marvel's books getting more visually "spectacular", X-MEN may have seemed an "outsider" to the rest of the line at the time. (Next to art by Jack Kirby on FANTASTIC FOUR, THOR & CAPTAIN AMERICA, Gene Colan on IRON MAN and DAREDEVIL, John Romita on SPIDER-MAN and Jim Steranko on S.H.I.E.L.D., these X-MEN stories have a Saturday-morning cartoon look by comparison!)

Between X-MEN and THE AVENGERS, Roy was learning how to write comics on-the-job! His dialogue is something I can only take in small doses here, as he tries to cram every available space with word balloons, whether it's called for or not. Without Stan's sense of humor, Roy's plots have to stand on their own-- at times it feels like someone imitating a Marvel Comic more than an actual one. Roy improved over time, as his later work on this series with Neal Adams proved.
A strange thought hit me by the end of the volume-- many of the featured villains were "borrowed" from other heroes' series! This is evident in my favorite story here, the 2-parter with Count Nefaria and a group of hired super-villains. You've got The Plantman and The Eel (Human Torch baddies from STRANGE TALES), The Scarecrow & The Unicorn (Iron Man foes from SUSPENSE) and The Porcupine (an Ant-Man & Wasp villain from ASTONISH, for cryin' out loud!). They're all pretty much 2nd-stringers, yet it's fun seeing them almost act like a "team"!

posted June 24, 2002 01:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Scippio:
I just finished the Submariner Masterworks. I was not expecting to like this one, because Namor was probably my least favorite Marvel character. Of course my only real exposure to Namor has come through his guest appearences in the Fantasic Four series and in the Avengers V1 and X-men V1 Masterworks. Everytime he would show up all he seemed to do was cause problems, since he doesn't seem to think anything he does through. (Plus he keeps hitting on Sue and I could never see why she would be into such an @$$)

But after reading this Masterworks I can finally understand why Namor has fans. It gave me a whole new apreciation for Namor that his guest shots in FF over the years never did. I'm now actually looking forward to a Submariner Masterworks Volume 2.

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I just picked up a whole bunch of these essentials, and i think they are a-ok. Does anyone know if there is a DR. Strange one?

posted June 24, 2002 07:22 PM            

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Originally posted by JayFlip:
I'm a bit bummed about the change in the Masterworks line. I have all of the original 27, and was really looking forward to Iron Man vol. 2, Avengers vol. 4, and Nick Fury vol. 1 this year. But dylanfan is right about Marvel's HC program - it's nicely done, and will take up some of the money in my budget that I would've spent on Masterworks.

And yes, stoter1, a Dr. Strange Essential was release earlier this year.

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I don't understand why they omit the original covers before each issue in their hard cover books. This weeks Punisher is big, bold, bad, and chockfull of Garth Ennis's indelible writing. but, like Ultimate Spider-Man and Origin, to name but a few, the original covers are missing.
Why are they able to put the original covers in Essentials, Masterworks, and Visionaries?