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 Was Dynamic Duo REALLY Needed? (an honest post for you Bob G.) (Page 3)
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| Author | Topic: Was Dynamic Duo REALLY Needed? (an honest post for you Bob G.) |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 20, 2003 02:39 AM
  
quote: Yeah, but it was Batman I wanted Kubert to have drawn! IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 20, 2003 03:01 AM
quote: Bingo, greene. IP: Logged |
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Scippio Member |
posted February 20, 2003 10:09 AM
quote: Not me. I buy them so that I can see the progression of the character from story to story. I could care less about who is writing or drawing them. I do get more excited about a particular volume or story if one of my favorite writers or artists is working on it, but they neither cause me to buy or not buy a particular archive. The only exceptions being the characters that are outside the DCU or MU (eg. The Spirit), which I buy because of creators, otherwise the character is what draws me to an archive not the creators. IP: Logged |
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quincyjb Member |
posted February 20, 2003 10:28 AM
James Friel wrote: quote: I couldn't agree with this more. I have bought SA issues of Flash, JLA, and Green Lantern, and there is a noticeable change in tone and quality when Fox, Broome, and company leave. Actually, a few issues before they leave, but close enough. I want more volumes of these series, until the work of this talented group of creators is fully reprinted. Likewise, I want more Hawkman and Atom, and the first several volumes of Adam Strange. My only reservation on Mystery in Space is that I just don't see DC starting the reprinting of this work at issue #117 or whereever the ongoing series of interest begin. So I would favor seeing the recurrent strips collected separately rather than waiting for MiS to be archived to that point. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 20, 2003 12:12 PM
quote: MIS actually has a very fortunate configuration--the first seven volumes of an archives series, collecting issues #1-52, contain only relatively minor series work (Knights of the Galaxy, Interplanetary Insurance, and Space Cabbie). Adam Strange, who appears both in SHOWCASE and in MYSTERY IN SPACE #53-102, obviously needs his own series, but there were non-Adam Strange stories in almost all of issues #53-86 that should appear in the MIS Archives too. The only series work among them is a relative handful of Star Rovers stories. If the MIS Archives series actually runs past issue #91, when Julius Schwartz leaves as editor and the creative cast changes completely, I'd include all content other than the Space Ranger stories. IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 20, 2003 03:38 PM
I happened to be looking through some of the GCD listings for Mystery in Space and Strange Adventures yesterday and it struck me that at the height of the Schwartz "Silver Age" while he was editing Flash, Green Lantern, and Justic League Schwartz was also editing these sci-fi anthologies (using the same talent pool that worked on those superhero projects). Really our picture of this key DC period will not be complete until we get (at least) a glimpse of the Schwartz anthologies. Since this Schwartz era is one of my highest priorities in terms of what archives I choose to buy, it seems vital that we get an anthology archive at some point. And Melkor (welcome to the archives board, by the way)--you won't get an argument from me on Batman. I agree almost 100% with everything you said. The animated titles are the only regular Batman comics I buy now. I've often felt that DC should just make animated Batman the regular continuity and put their so-called mainstream Batman into an Elseworlds line. Time is on our side though--if we and DC live that long--because I believe that most young potential Batman readers get their exposure to Batman through the toons (or the old TV show or the movies). So when they come to the Batman comics the Batman they most recognize is the animated version. These youngsters don't have much power at the moment to decide what DC does with their darknight detective--but with the animated Batman in heavy rotation for several years now and more years to come--eventually there will be a critical mass of the readership who recognize this as their Batman. From that mass of youth, in time, will come the next editors, writers, and artists to map out Batman's future. In the meantime, though, it's unfortunate that not enough of these potentials readers are being steered toward the archives and other reprint collections. The eight year olds who discovered the animated Batman in the early nineties are now eighteen or older and can afford an archive or a tradepaperback. But DC hasn't made the connection for them between animated Batman and old continuity Batman. DC does a good job of selling archives to the older readers, but they haven't reached out to this younger market. One way to do this would be digests. Digests that reprint both the animated stories and the pre-seventies Batmans. Digests don't suit the needs of quality minded collectors, but they're perfect for little kids. And the digests would make the connection for these youths between animated and old Batman comics--setting up the potential down the road for new archive buyers. IP: Logged |
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Wellington Member |
posted February 20, 2003 03:51 PM
It's a combination of creators and characters that sells me on any book, archive or not. Jack Cole and Plastic Man, CC Beck and Captain Marvel, Infantino and Flash, Kane and Green Lantern--these are all characters that I don't have nearly the same interest in if the creators are changed, and vice versa. However, I'm picking up THUNDER Agents specifically because of Wally Wood, and knowing next to nothing about the characters. I bought Batman Volume 1 and Superman Volume 1 because I wanted to read the early adventures of those characters, not particularly for the Shuster and Kane artwork. I'll buy Challengers because of Kirby, and I bought the Doom Patrol because of the characters... With Dynamic Duo, it's the right combination of characters that I like (who doesn't dig the 60's Batman? Reruns of the tv show made me a lifelong fan of the character...) plus an art style that I enjoy, too (1960's Infantino--classic stuff). Silver Age Superman is another must-buy, but I don't feel the need to read too much more of their Golden Age adventures (World's Finest is near the very bottom of my Archive shopping list). Guess a lot of it depends on when you were exposed to these characters, and whose style was prominent at the time. Swan's Superman had a strong impact on everything when I started reading comics, and Infantino's Batman seemed to be a stronger influence than the more recent (and prominent) Neal Adams by the time I was digging into my older brothers' comics... IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 20, 2003 04:09 PM
quote: That's a point I've been trying to make for a couple years here on the archives board, and I think people are tired of hearing me say it. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 20, 2003 04:28 PM
quote: I think the last statement above says most of it. IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 20, 2003 04:34 PM
Sort of to combine two of my points into one anecdote: In Comicbook Marketplace recently I read an interview with a writer from Seinfeld (can't recall his name, but he wrote the "Bizarro Seinfeld" episode) where he said that he first encountered Swan & Klein in the early eighties DC digests and immediately fell in love with the work. It didn't occur to him that the work was printed at half-size--those digests for him were the real deal. IP: Logged |
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Old Dude Member |
posted February 20, 2003 06:32 PM
quote: I posted a slightly different version of the following a couple weeks ago over on ODCUT in a thread called "Best Western Ever": I also have All-Star Western #118 and #119 that I bought originally back in 1961. These All-Stars are incredible comics. Edited by Julius Schwartz, they were produced by the same men who were working on Schwartz's other books. Johnny Thunder was drawn by Gil Kane and the backup Super-Chief tales were drawn AND INKED, I believe, by Carmine Infantino. Both features were probably scripted by John Broome or Gardner Fox (there were no credit boxes back then). Johnny has a secret identity as a school teacher. As the teacher, he wears an 1880s-style business suit, glasses (ala-Clark Kent), and sports his natural blonde hair. When shots ring out on the peaceful streets of town, he removes the glasses, changes into his trademark red shirt and blue pants, puts black dye on his hair (in a mere slit second!), straps on his six-shooters, and becomes Johnny Thunder! Johnny's friendly nemesis is Madame .44, a red-headed sharpshooter in white with a kerchief mask, who steals at gunpoint the ill-gotten gains of technically "legal" crooked businessmen, bankers, etc. and returns it to those who were wronged. Since stealing is stealing, Johnny is honorbound to bring Madame .44 to justice. The lady also has a secret identity, a travelling photographer. In both stories I've read, Johnny and Madame .44 spend part of the time trying to learn each other's real identity, the rest of the time finally joining forces to capture the owlhoots. . . the varmints. . . the bad guys, and finally Madame .44 escapes before Johnny can arrest her. Then there was Super-Chief. The Great Manitou granted this Indian not-so-brave (ala-Clark Kent) invulnerabilty and a plethora of Superman-like powers including super-strength, which allowed him to leap as if he were flying. He was the pre-Columbian Hourman. His powers lasted 60 minutes, and could only be used once in 24 hours. In the two issues I have, the Chief first battled giant warriors, then Infantino space aliens. Unfortunately, just as I was getting into All-Star Western, it was canceled with issue #119. As James Friel points out, these comics fit nicely in with the other Schwartz-edited comics of the period. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 20, 2003 06:50 PM
The DC Western titles really were hybrid superhero comics in western drag, let's not mince words about it. Few if any characters had powers, other than Super-Chief (possibly the only DC character named after a train); but a lot of them went masked and/or had secret identities. IP: Logged |
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silveragesuperfan New Member |
posted February 20, 2003 08:08 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by India Ink: ...it struck me that at the height of the Schwartz "Silver Age" while he was editing Flash, Green Lantern, and Justic League Schwartz was also editing these sci-fi anthologies (using the same talent pool that worked on those superhero projects). Really our picture of this key DC period will not be complete until we get (at least) a glimpse of the Schwartz anthologies. Since this Schwartz era is one of my highest priorities in terms of what archives I choose to buy, it seems vital that we get an anthology archive at some point. I love this sci-fi anthology stuff at least as much as silver age Flash, Green Lantern, Superman, etc. I would pre-buy such archives in advance and in an instant. Unfortunately, I seem to be in a minority as far as DC is concerned(I really think they would do better as an archive though, than they did as the trade with the psuedo-retro cover). I hope I live to see some Strange Adventures and Mystery In Space archives. Can't afford the early originals and house payments too. But I think maybe we will eventually see a series archive for Adam Strange and Atomic Knights... IP: Logged |
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quincyjb Member |
posted February 20, 2003 10:03 PM
quote: Ah. I was thinking of Strange Adventures. #104 saw the debut of Space Museum. #114 started Star Hawkins. #117 began the Atomic Knights. Anyhoo, I hate to see the series characters delayed until the eleventh or so volume of an archive series, and then to see their adventures spread thinly over the next four or so archives. Frankly, I doubt that we will see twelve volumes of St Adv archives in our lifetime. It sounds like Adam and the Atomic Knights are already singled out for solo volumes, so I guess it's pointless to worry about the configuration of the remainder of the MiS and St Adv volumes, until Adam and the Knights amaze us all with their out of this world sales! IP: Logged |
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gmp Member |
posted February 21, 2003 12:12 AM
posted by Welliington Silver Age Superman is another must-buy, but I don't feel the need to read too much more of their Golden Age adventures I think Superman is a perfect example to illustrate the character versus creator discussion. There are of course many fans of Superman that will buy every volume because of their love of the character. Conversely, there are many fans who won't buy them until they get to the Silver Age volumes because of the look and content of those specific books. Of course, nostalgia plays a part in both camps. My point to DC is this, why not increase production and satisfy fans of both camps? They're not going to lose sales of the Golden Age books to the Silver Age fans, because they're not buying them anyway. On the other hand, the hard core Superman fans will buy both. I think the same argument applies to the wish of many fans for Science Fiction Anthology Archive volumes, as well as Adam Strange fans. Why not do both? Glenn IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 21, 2003 01:56 AM
quote: OK, how's this? IP: Logged |
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quincyjb Member |
posted February 21, 2003 10:09 AM
I plan to support whichever science fiction archives DC releases, as long as the material is pre- Time Warp. Strange Adventures, Mystery in Space, Adam Strange, Kamandi, or other series character -- bring them on. IP: Logged |
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daytripper Member |
posted February 21, 2003 07:24 PM
James, I quit buying the Flash when Infantino stopped drawing it. I also quit buying Tarzan when Russ Manning stopped drawing it. Nothing against the talented artists who followed both men. I didn't buy Tarzan again until DC had the rights and Kubert drew it. As far as Batman is concerned, I went out of my way to buy the Annuals where they reprinted the Sprang and Robinson Sunday Batman strips. While I liked the early Daredevil and Spider-Man characters, no other characters really attracted me--it was nearly always the artist or writer that drew me in. ------------------ IP: Logged |
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whoswhoz New Member |
posted February 21, 2003 07:50 PM
quote: Boring was a much better artist than Swan. He is the supreme Superman artist of all time. Unfortunately Boring peaked in the late forties and early fifties, very little of which is available to the comic fan without unlimited means or a microfiche reader. IP: Logged |
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Old Dude Member |
posted February 22, 2003 12:31 AM
quote: Sigh! I was going to let this pass, but I cannot. Boring is the SECOND greatest Superman artist after Swan! I loved both their art. Wayne Boring was the main Superman artist (in sheer number of pages produced) when I started reading comics back in the '50s, with Al Plastino a close second. Over in Jimmy Olsen, Curt Swann was toiling away, but I wasn't much impressed. Sometime in the early '60s, Swan began appearing more and more in the Superman features in both Superman and Action. I don't know if it was a different inker or what, but boy did his stuff look good! That's when Boring took second place in my eyes. About a year before he passed away, I met Mr. Swan at a convention, and took the opportunity to tell him in person how much I liked his work, and to thank him personally for the hundreds of hour of enjoyment it had given me over the years. I wish I could have done the same with Mr. Boring. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted February 22, 2003 04:23 AM
I think Swan was, by the criteria that are important to me, in general a superior comic book artist to Boring: he told stories visually more effectively, and he was a superior draughtsman. Nevertheless, I still prefer Boring's massive, majestic, somewhat stiff rendition of the character and of his world. The Swan Superman, for me, was a little too...ordinary. He was a regular guy. On the other hand, nobody can touch Swan on Superboy. IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted February 22, 2003 04:49 PM
Keep up the great commentary guys--I'm filing this away in my head for a fictional documentary book some day. The argument that Boring was greatest in the late forties/early fifties stops me cold. Many of us can't get our hands on these original issues (and who can trust reprint restorations?), so it's a great argument because few can argue against it. My fictional book would have scholars talking about a comic that was printed on such bad paper with such bad ink that any copies either faded away completely to a uniform brown or disintegrated entirely. IP: Logged |
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REKLEN Member |
posted February 22, 2003 08:28 PM
I started reading Superman Comics, in what, 1977 or 1978, when I was around six, or whenever I learned how to read (Can't remember not being able to. At the time I didn't care whether it was George Reeves, Christopher Reeve, or Superfriends, it was all Superman to me. Of course, as I grew older, I started noticing different artists drew different stories, but the majority were done by Swan. Yet, people today hate the Swan work. Of course everyone hated Kirby's stuff too, until he died. Now he is lionized. I don't understand why this isn't happening for Swan. He was superior artist to both Boring and Kirby. Boring was probably the best of the early Superman artists, but he was no innovater. His stuff always looked the same, same poses, etc. Only Mac Raboy's stuff was more static, and he used photostats! India, I have to disagree with you about one thing, Boring's work has been repeatedly reprinted since the 60s, in books and digests, and in comics. I myself have lots of silverage comics, and even the Charlton Ones look better than some of the one that are produced today. They must have used better paper then. And, while I only have a handful of 1949s comics, the one I do have usually have beautiful white pages, and bright colors. The worst printed comics ever are probably silver-age Marvel. Case in point, I recently compared my Thunder Agents #1 from the sixties, with the JC Comic reprint, and the original looked much better, some of the lines in the reprint didn't produce. On the other hand, lots of my 70s books, the color looks faded and the pages are changing color. In conclusion I think the Silver-Age books were the most well-done in terms of quality, not only story and art, but in printing and page clarity as well, and Swan drew better than Boring. What was this topic again? Reklen IP: Logged |
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batfan63 Member |
posted February 23, 2003 01:10 PM
quote: Ouch! Not to bring this back, but I have not been on the boards for a few. I cannot help but disagree. Point 1--the crossovers are good because they use the whole Batman family. Whereas I agree Robin is a pitiful comic and Birds of Prey are losing me (that art is sophomoric and hideous) the others are within continuity. Now if you want to rip on SuperBORE (uh, man--sorry) by all means do. Point 2--this comes from Jordan Gorfinkle (former Batman Asst. Editor) the reason Az was chosen was because DC had tons of letters demanding to make Batman more Wolverine-ish. They could not do it with Grayson, so they created Az. By the by, the Prodigy story which followed gave the Grayson fans what they wanted. Point 3--I love the Adventures as well, but the Earthquake storyline was quite good. Now I agree the Dark Joker stuff was wretched, but the Catclysim (sp?) and fallout have been entertaining. I was not as much of a fan of the bruce Wayne Murderer stuff, but I think HUSH and the storyline raging in Detective have been quite good. They also do not mesh with the other comics in the Bat-verse. Whereas I love the Adventures--and "Mad Love" was great--Batman is well-written and entertaining in other titles as well. IP: Logged |
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quincyjb Member |
posted February 23, 2003 02:50 PM
I took Swan's artwork for granted when I was getting started reading comics in the early 70s, but now appreciate it. It is wonderful stuff. For me, he is *the* Superman artist. If you skipped it, I recommend the Superman in the Seventies collection. Lotsa great Swan artwork in there. Sounds like a second volume is unlikely, but maybe if enough of us write DC, we'll see another collection of seventies Swan Superman stories. IP: Logged |
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