posted February 19, 2003 07:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Coleo:
But an Archive? I don't know if the material warrants it, at least not right now when there's so much stuff--even so much *Kirby* work from the golden and silver age--that has yet to be collected.

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I don't think we Kamandi fans are interested in the 'I'm MORE Kirby than you are' debate.
The archive of Challenger this year does not preclude other Kirby archives, and I this each project will be assess by DC on its own merits.

Kamanid, I beleive, has a lot to recommend it. Kamandi is probably DC's longest running original SF series (if you count Legion as a Superhero series). Its following includes not just Kirby fans but also some who are otherwise indifferent to Jack Kirby 's style. It's also a self contained story (99%)and does not require extra info on the part of readers.

And I'd disagree that somehow Kamandi is less deserving of the archive format than other material. Thats a very subjective point, and I would probably consider some of your favorites equally "unworthy".

posted February 19, 2003 07:43 PM               

This character, moreso than anything else Kirby produced for DC (other than the character of Darkseid) is the most fondly remembered by the generations of creators that came after. He's had numerous guest appearances in oter character's titles for decades now (Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman have all run into him at times since his series has been cancelled.) The art is wonderful and there are only sixteen issues of Kirby's work on the character to collect. Sounds good and profitable to me!

posted February 19, 2003 07:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Melkor:
But what about the Demon?

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What about him?

This is exactly what I meant when I said:

quote:

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I don't think we Kamandi fans are interested in the 'I'm MORE Kirby than you are' debate.

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This topic is for discussing Kamandi. It's not a Last Kirby Comic Standing competition to see what gets archived.

If you want to lobby for a Demon archive start a new thread and knock yourself out.

posted February 19, 2003 07:59 PM            

I think Kamandi fans have to choose between a complete TPB collection or 2 or 3 Archives.

Even if you get all 6 volumes, it's going to take a while. I think that the best you can hope for is one Archive every three years. So, MAYBE you get all 6 by 2019.

On the other hand, I think a TPB might be released every other year, or even once a year.

In my opinion, Kamandi is a low priority Archive. Newsboy Legion, Boy Commandos, Demon, and obviously Challengers seem more likely to me among Kirby's work. Adam Strange and Atomic Knights seem more likely to me among sci-fi.

In any case, I believe Bob said that the Fourth World Jimmy collection isn't an Archive. It could be the first hardcover in a Kirby Library. Would such a library contain the last two Kamandi volumes?

posted February 19, 2003 08:04 PM               

quote:

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This topic is for discussing Kamandi. It's not a Last Kirby Comic Standing competition to see what gets archived.

If you want to lobby for a Demon archive start a new thread and knock yourself out.

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And part of the discussion of a possible Kamandi archive should be how high a priority it is when compared with the rest of Kirby's DC work. Unless this is a "discussion" of Kamandi's merits that doesn't allow for a dissenting point of view? In which case, why call it a discussion at all?

Mark

posted February 19, 2003 09:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Melkor:
And part of the discussion of a possible Kamandi archive should be how high a priority it is when compared with the rest of Kirby's DC work.

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Why? What does collecting one Kirby series have to do with collecting another?

Dissent all you like - I'm asking you to stick to the topic. I honestly don't think Kamandi has a hope of being archived, but myself and other Kamandi boosters have made some good points about why we think it deserves to be collected. I don't consider "I want a different Kirby archive," a valid point why it shouldn't. I said that 3 posts ago, and restating an argument I've already discarded doesn't make it any more valid.

I'll say this again because it doesn't seem to sinking in: There is nothing to be gained by playing "My favorite Kirby series is better than yours!"

posted February 20, 2003 12:08 AM               

Character popularity -- Currently low. Has not appeared regularly for many years. This works against this archive.

Creator popularity -- Definitely favors this archive.

Genre -- Would nicely break into the sci-fi genre. This could be the third series in the Adam Strange / Atomic Knights / x triad. I would say this makes such an archive more likely.

Scarcity/demand -- The material isn't as old as most of the other likely archive candidates. I don't think the books are that scarce. This factor probably works against this archive.

Series length -- Not a done-in-one, so in that sense this factor is against an archive. However, the series enjoyed a lengthy run (about sixty issues) in the modern age. This may offset the character's current lack of visibility, and make this archive more likely to be published.

Overall, I would guess this archive is in the top dozen most likely Silver Age candidates for a first archive volume, but probably not in the top five. But the genre factor may mean that we see this sooner rather than later.

posted February 20, 2003 09:31 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamandi Last Boy on Earth:
I don't consider "I want a different Kirby archive," a valid point why it shouldn't. I said that 3 posts ago, and restating an argument I've already discarded doesn't make it any more valid.

I'll say this again because it doesn't seem to sinking in: [b] There is nothing to be gained by playing "My favorite Kirby series is better than yours!"
[/B]

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You seem to have those ragged blue shorts all bunched up, Kamandi. I know it's a hard life you lead, always on the run from bear patrols and such, but it's time to loosen the belt a little.

You "discarded" an argument I didn't make. Just so you know, Kamandi happens to be my all-time favorite Kirby series (DC, anyway) and my reservations about Archiving it have nothing to do with my personal preferences about the King's DC material. I just don't think a Kamandi Archive, at least anytime soon, fits the objectives of the Archives publishing plan, and I also think the format isn't the best way to present the material. In my view, there are comics that are much more rare, expensive and far more historically important (Kirby and otherwise) that I think take Archiving precedence over something that's a pet favorite of mine, like Kamandi.

Like you, I'm all for the TPB treatment, and I think the series could better find a new audience that way. Remember--DC doesn't do paperbacks of their Archived material, so a Kamandi Archives would preclude a more affordable format for the indefinite future. Kamandi was a comic meant to be read and put aside in about five minutes--that was actually one of its charms. I think as low a price point as possible is fitting --as I was trying to say before, if you dress it up too much, the essentially dashed-off nature of the material won't be presented in its best light. IMO, of course.

And no matter how cranky you are about dismissing it, wanting more important Kirby work collected first is a perfectly valid position, given that there's such a limited number of slots available. all of the points you raise support the idea that Kamandi should be reprinted, and it should, but that doesn't mean the book ought to get an Archives in the near future. (Maybe in the far future, After Disaster?)

posted February 20, 2003 12:35 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamandi Last Boy on Earth:
...Dissent all you like - I'm asking you to stick to the topic. I honestly don't think Kamandi has a hope of being archived, but myself and other Kamandi boosters have made some good points about why we think it deserves to be collected....

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posted February 20, 2003 01:34 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by NecessaryImpurity:
...having ALL Kamandi stories appear in Archives doesn't preclude SOME Kamandi stories (a "Best Of") from appearing in paperback.

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Good point on the film. I have no idea about DC's files--what *are* the chances that DC would have complete, pristine film on a book from 1972?

A best-of collection would be fun, but at least a little disjointed. IIRC, most of Kamandi's adventures ended on cliffhangers. And really, the "best-of" is pretty much the entire first two years plus #29, the Superman's costume issue. For good or bad, the book was amazingly consistent under Kirby.You always knew what you were getting. I'd like to see the Haney/Aparo story from B&B #120 in such a collection--good old Haney made sure to violate one of the core premises of Kamandi, and introduce an entire tribe of thinking humans--including a teenager named Garth, which makes me wonder if he even noticed that Kamandi was called "Last Boy on Earth". Haney sure was one of a kind. Thank God.

posted February 20, 2003 04:17 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Coleo:
You seem to have those ragged blue shorts all bunched up, Kamandi. I know it's a hard life you lead, always on the run from bear patrols and such, but it's time to loosen the belt a little.

You "discarded" an argument I didn't make.

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If you'd been wearing the same ragged pants for 25 years, you'd be a bit disgruntled too. It's actually Melkor I was specifically responding too. He's trying to put forward a point that Kamandi is not as important in Kirby's body of work as the Demon therefore Kamandi should not be archived until the Demon is done.

I'm saying that its a specious argument because archiving one Kirby series doesn't necessarily bear on the status of another and, in any case, we're not talking about the order they appear in.

Qunicyjb restated the arguments for a Kamandi archive, above, and you'll notice none of they are: "because it's better than Kirby's other series ________".

In fact, I'd be surprised if Kamandi was archived before the Demon - but that's not our topic. Our topic is the Kamandi archive: reasons for it, what should be in it. Not "What I like better," or "What should come before a Kamandi Archive."

posted February 20, 2003 06:42 PM               

quote:

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I'm saying that its a specious argument because archiving one Kirby series doesn't necessarily bear on the status of another...

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Interesting point, but we don't know that for cetain. Here's a hypothetical situation for you:

DC chooses to archive Kamandi. It doesn't sell to expectations. DC then decides that 70's Kirby work doesn't have quite the fanbase they hoped it did, and either puts off for a long time or never gets around to archiving the New Gods, Demon, Mister Miracle, Omac, etc.

Possible?

posted February 21, 2003 03:50 PM               

I was never too much a fan of jungle-type stuff, so I always saw this a Ka-Zar meets the Planet of the Apes...

Secondly, geez - I dunno, but I always felt Kirby's DC work in the 70s was almost a caricature of his epic Marvel efforts. Maybe was a bias on my part, but I never felt he "fit" at DC. Obviously, I'm in a minority.
Was he his own editor? Maybe he needed someone to "reel him in".

Now, about that Challs of the Unkown coming soon! Yeeehaaa! Rebel yell, y'all!

But, hell, may we all get our archive/tpb wishes!

posted February 21, 2003 04:17 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlo:

...I always felt Kirby's DC work in the 70s was almost a caricature of his epic Marvel efforts. Maybe was a bias on my part, but I never felt he "fit" at DC. Obviously, I'm in a minority.
Was he his own editor? Maybe he needed someone to "reel him in"....

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posted February 21, 2003 09:51 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:
Yeah, he was his own editor, and I think that's the problem. He was one of the all-time greats as a visionary and a visual storyteller, but I always felt he had a tin ear for dialogue--making him not only a bad choice to write his own material, but there was no one to rein in his excesses.

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posted February 21, 2003 11:50 PM               

damn, come to think of it...what did the "King" do after his DC shift? Man, did he return to Marvel for any length of time?
Gosh, seems like I "lost" him after those DC days!...

posted February 21, 2003 11:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Carlo:
Thanks, James and Owen for that confirmation of Kirby's editorial status...I kinda thought he had a free hand in that regard...

damn, come to think of it...what did the "King" do after his DC shift? Man, did he return to Marvel for any length of time?
Gosh, seems like I "lost" him after those DC days!...

Best...
Carlo

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Don't tell me you missed the MADBOMB Captain America, Devil Dinosaur, Black Panther w/King Soloman's Toad, 2001/Machine Man and the Eternals.

posted February 22, 2003 04:28 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Joe Pacheco:
Don't tell me you missed the MADBOMB Captain America, Devil Dinosaur, Black Panther w/King Soloman's Toad, 2001/Machine Man and the Eternals.

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posted February 22, 2003 06:32 AM               

Hell, I DID miss those! ha!

posted February 22, 2003 10:23 PM            

Because I associate Kirby with "cosmic" stuff and "weird" critters, I find Kirby drawing Jimmy Olsen, for example, an utter mismatch. Maybe Kirby himself didn't see it that way, but the idea of him drawing ordinary people in suits with bow ties just seems, so, ordinary.

One person's favorite Kirby series is another's least. I really enjoyed Kamandi, but I'm completely indifferent to OMAC which is supposed to be it's prequel.

posted February 23, 2003 03:16 PM               

It is hard to argue that of the characters JK created at DC, the ones with the strongest current presence are the New Gods and Darkseid. And yet, the reprints of JK's work on these titles left me wanting no more. I realize his Fourth World titles are popular with other fans, but they did little for me. The dialogue in particular struck me as awful. Walt Simonson's recent Orion series was the first time I actually enjoyed reading about these characters.

The Kamandi run struck me as more readable. I don't think the dialogue was quite as bad. Or maybe it just seemed more acceptable coming from non-primates. I don't know. And the fun level was like 20x greater. A boy running around having zany adventures avoiding capture or death by races of intelligent bipedal tigers and such. Much funner than reading about Darkseid's latest grab for the Anti Life Equation.