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bob_r Member |
posted April 14, 2003 09:16 AM
  
I picked up LSH 12 and I would *gladly* buy LSH archives up to the present day. Same with JLA, Superman, JSA/All-Star Squadron/Young All Stars, and several others. The question is, how realistic is it to expect a Legion Archives 50, a Superman Volume 50, etc? Legion seems to be about 25 years behind the current series. And people have mapped it out and I'm not the only one who's expressed interest. SA Flash and GL fall into the same category. There's easily another 20 years worth of archives (assuming 1 a year for each of them). Will we get them? IP: Logged |
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Lightning + Chemicals Member |
posted April 14, 2003 09:28 AM
I would have no problem buying Legion Archives up to the original Crises ... possibly up to Zero Hour .... I guess I like the Legion.... IP: Logged |
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Joe Pacheco Member |
posted April 14, 2003 01:33 PM
I'd buy Legion up to Zero Hour. IP: Logged |
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Steve Overton Member |
posted April 14, 2003 02:57 PM
Me too ! I'm anxious for them to get to the start of the Baxter series, with the LSH v LSV, & the death of Karate Kid ! Anxious & yet patient in a "zen" sort of way i guess. Steve ( COME ONNNN ) O IP: Logged |
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India Ink Member |
posted April 14, 2003 05:52 PM
I think they should take a double approach for LSH. Adding to the already collected Great Darkness Saga, they should do TPB collections for story arcs on either side of that epic. Eventually the trades would just keep going back further and further in the eighties, until arriving at some point in the late seventies. At the same time the Legion archives would progress through the seventies, until arriving at the same point in the late seventies. The archives could go on from there reprinting what has already been reprinted in the tpbs. But I think those hardcovers would be intended for a very select audience--people who just need to have everything in hardcover. IP: Logged |
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Joe Pacheco Member |
posted April 14, 2003 06:09 PM
I'd rather not have them in TBP. I already have the baxter series and the 5 years later series as comic books, so I wouldn't buy the TBP. The whole point is getting them in Hard Cover! I know I can get them custom made, I'm not ready to go that route yet. IP: Logged |
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Joe Pacheco Member |
posted April 14, 2003 06:12 PM
Sorry India, missed your point on my first post. Your idea of TPBs and archives together, eventually phasing out the TPBs sounds like a good idea! IP: Logged |
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srca1941 Member |
posted April 14, 2003 07:15 PM
I'd buy until Zero Hour without hesitation. I never was real big on the Legion until I picked up a bunch of Adventure issues this fall, and am just now getting around to reading them. In addition, I've just started reading the first volume this month, and I'm LOVING it!!! I can't wait to read the rest!!! -Steve ------------------ IP: Logged |
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bob_r Member |
posted April 14, 2003 07:31 PM
I didn't mean to make this a LSH only thread, although that is the title I would most likely buy continously. I'm not sure I'd pick up the archives of Justice League Detroit.  But definitely Giffen's JLE (I think that's the right title). Anyone with strong opinions on Superman, Batman, JLA, WW, GL and GA? These are the only other titles that I can think of that have been around long enough to make the question worthwhile. Any other titles out there that this could be an issue for? IP: Logged |
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vze2 Member |
posted April 14, 2003 08:34 PM
I believe that my view is the minority opinion. I apologize for the long post, but this is a complex question. I think that there will come a time when the number of new volumes will slow to a trickle because we are no longer here and our successors will be focusing on buying older volumes. I think this point is about 20-30 years from now. I do think that the market can expand, but I think that 24 is probably the limit, including Spirit, Tor, Neal Adams, etc. I'm willing to slide to 26. This estimate is all guesswork based on the extremely small amount of information at my disposal. I believe that expansion is limited by the completists. I'm NOT talking about people who buy everything because they want a complete set. I'm talking about people like myself who genuinely want everything they puchase. While I am mildly interested in Elfquest, I'm not interested enough, so I will pass it up. However, I am genuinely interested in any Golden Age title that DC is likely to reprint. I believe that completists, on average, will buy a maximum of 4 high-end products a month (2 DC, 1 Marvel, maybe something like the upcoming Al Williamson book). This would equal 24. Someone, I think NecessaryImpurity, suggested 1 Archive-like product every 2 weeks (26 total). I can see this scenario as well. I don't think DC can escape this limit without seriously expanding into other genres. And I'm not sure that they can do this with just DC titles. Anyone still with me? If you accept all this, we won't se a volume 50 of anything. I don't think we will see complete Golden Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Shazam!, Captain Marvel Jr, Mary Marvel, Doll Man, Blackhawk, possibly Plastic Man, Green Arrow, or Aquaman. I'm sure I've forgotten something. I don't think that many Silver Age titles will make it to the late 70s. I think that most titles from the late 70s on will be collected as TPBs or not collected at all. I know a lot of people here won't buy anything that isn't in hardcover, but I think that the majority of people who want titles from the late 70s onwards would rather have a cheaper trade. IP: Logged |
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vze2 Member |
posted April 14, 2003 08:38 PM
Wow. That last post was a lot shorter than it seemed when I was writing it. IP: Logged |
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dcexplosion78 Member |
posted April 14, 2003 09:08 PM
I don't see Archives slowing to a trickle. It seems like one of the few publishing ventures in comics that has been expanding. IP: Logged |
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outpost2 Member |
posted April 15, 2003 10:49 AM
We all like to imagine that DC will one day get all of its golden age and silver age material into Archive format, but I think we are also smart enough to understand that that isn't going to actually happen. There just aren't enough years in our lifetimes to have it all. So how about a debate on the bare minimum number of volumes for each line? We all have our favorites for which we'd be tempted to say "I want everything", but be realistic and pick a reasonable stopping point. Let's assume there are about 100 volumes now, and another 400 volumes to be published before the project dies out. As an example, using Owen's Legion map from http://futurearchives.tripod.com/lsh.html , here are some highlights of that line: vol. 15 All-New Collectors' Edition #C-55. For this exercise, I would choose volume 17 as the end of the Legion line. Yes, I know that they should keep on publishing Legion volumes as long as they sell, and I know that this newer material probably subsidizes some of the golden age and older silver age stuff, but let's ignore those issues for now. Now do one of your favorites. The trick is, when we are all done, not to exceed the 500 volume maximum. IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted April 15, 2003 12:55 PM
DC should continue to issue additions as long as they make money. If the 34th volume of Legion makes twice as much money as the 4th volume of Blackhawk, then DC should continue to issue more Legions at the expense of Blackhawk. DC already has about 3 times as many Archive lines as annual spots to publish, and that discrepancy is growing. GA Flash and New Teen Titans are examples of books that didn't seem to distinguish themselves with high sales. Both lines have waited 4 years for a follow-up. If sales had been higher, you can bet that the follow-ups would have happened a lot sooner. Is it possible we will never see another volume of Jay's adventures? Yes. I'm not happy about it, but I wouldn't blame today's DC. I'd blame today's fan for not buying the book and I'd blame 1940's DC for not puting out a better product. Today's DC can't be expected to lose money (or more likely, pass up a $100 profit for a $1 profit) just because we Archive addicts wish it. Rule #1 is make the customer happy, and the customers vote with dollars. They say "more Legion, less GA Flash!". Elections with $$ tend to be very clear over time. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted April 15, 2003 01:07 PM
I largely agree, NI, though I'd soften that policy somewhat (and I think DC already does) in favor of sometimes publishing some material of very high historical importance or very high quality (admittedly subjective, but often many people agree on it) ahead of some other material which might sell somewhat better. Like most of life, it's a balancing act. As for outpost2's exercise: I'd say that the indispensible period of Silver Age Flash consists of the first Carmine Infantino run, and ends with Flash Archives Vol,9. Similarly, the indispensible Silver Age Green Lantern also ends with the ninth archive volume, just before the O'Neil/Adams GL/GA stories begin. While there's not a lot of Gil Kane in the final volume, what there is is magnificent--he was just beginning a period of evolution as an artist and you can watch his work improve and become more dynamic from issue to issue. IP: Logged |
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outpost2 Member |
posted April 15, 2003 01:32 PM
NI, from a business standpoint, I agree with you completely. That's why I said "Yes, I know that they should keep on publishing Legion volumes as long as they sell, ... but let's ignore those issues for now." I'm more interested in what fans consider to be, as James puts it, "indispensible" runs of certain characters. In other words, fill in the blank -- "My favorite character is _____ and, although I'd like to see it all reprinted, I'll be really bummed out if they don't publish through at least issue _____." IP: Logged |
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Marty Raap Member |
posted April 15, 2003 01:33 PM
I'd agree with James -- clearly money shouldn't be, and I think isn't, the only factor. In fact, building an interest in lesser titles by continuing to support them regularly might be more profitable in the long run than abandoning a series after one disappointing volume. In other words, you've got to spend money to make money, and I suspect that sticking by lesser-selling titles will pay dividends in the long run. Also, as far as we know every Archive has been successful, at least at some point, so it's just an issue of degrees of success. Obviously DC has to make money to survive and can't commit financial suicide, but they don't necessarily have to leap right to the cream and ignore lower-selling (but still profitable) material. They'll get more in the long run by milking all of it. Remember one of the beauties of the Archive program -- they never go out of print, so any volume is almost guaranteed to make money sooner or later. I suppose there's limits to that idea, but we haven't really seen those yet (although I suspect Mad Archive #1 came close). Also, outpost's post was interesting. Obviously, we all hope the Archive line continues indefinitely, but what if there only are, say, 200 volumes left? This thought does put a little perspective on what volumes you really want. People are always clamoring for new series they want started, but would you really rather see Hawk & Dove #1, say, over All-Star #11? This is another reminder that, while new lines are always fun, there's a lot to be said for finishing off the runs that are really the highest quality comics. If you define the quality SA Flash and SA GL as James does, through 9 volumes (it's probably at least that far), wouldn't we really rather see this stuff before Firestorm #1, even if we'd like a Firestorm Archive #1 in a perfect world? Just more reason to remember that continuing quality lines already started is at least important, if not more so, than pumping out new lines with new characters. Of course, if you really do just love Hawk & Dove #1 I guess that's what you'd want to see, but the point is that it does encourage some prioritization of what you want to see. I suspect that most people, if given an ultimatum to go one way or the other, would rather see more volumes of lines that have already been started than new series with new characters. IP: Logged |
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Joe Average New Member |
posted April 15, 2003 02:40 PM
vze2 wrote: If you accept all this, we won't se a volume 50 of anything. I don't think we will see complete Golden Age Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Green Lantern, Shazam!, Captain Marvel Jr, Mary Marvel, Doll Man, Blackhawk, possibly Plastic Man, Green Arrow, or Aquaman. I'm sure I've forgotten something. ******************* Interesting post VZE2 but I predict that you are not correct. And to add hope to this prediction, consider the similar situation with monthly floppies. If we were all so interested in purchasing from the beginning of a series, Superman #615 (say) would never get published since we'd all be trying to get numbers 1 through 614 first. If we ever do get to the point where Shazam! Vol. 19 comes out, I wouldn't expect that people would stop buying it just because they don't have the first 18 volumes. This will be especially true when DC can no longer keep all the old volumes in print - as will surely happen one day if the line continues to be successful. (As an aside, that day may already be here. My Amazon wish list has archives that are "no longer available" such as LSH Vol 8.) As most other posters agreed upon, profits are the only element that drives the continuing production of archives and only time will tell who is correct. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted April 15, 2003 03:00 PM
There is an observable diminution in sales in later volumes of numbered bood series. That's why most authors who write books featuring continuing characters (or more properly their publsihers) either don't number the volumes, or issue them in a series of short series, goving us trilogy after trilogy. They just sell better that way. This is why it would probably be smart from a sales perspective for DC to break the long-running features into as many subseries as possible. For instance, 1950s and 1970s Batman should probably be marketed not as part of the already-existing lines, but as two more Batman series. I wouldn't advocate doing that until some of the existing ones have run their course (or nearly done so), so as not to flood the market and confuse potential customers; but making as many, not as few, divisions as possible (or at least as many as seem to make sense) is probably the smartest way for DC to go. As for early volumes going out of print, I suppose it could happen, but I'd guess that, first, it will be middle, not the earliest, volumes that are allowed to lapse (in bookstores, the volumes of continuing series that sell best are the first and the most recent--it's the middle ones that tend to languish). Secondly, I'd doubt that any volumes of DC Archives will be allowed to remain permanently OP--it's more likely that if DC has trouble keeping everything in print simultaneously, they'll just let some go for longer periods between printings. And as print-to-order technology becomes more prevalent in the industry, the distinction between in print and out of print will probably, sooner than we think, become meaningless anyway. IP: Logged |
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arromdee New Member |
posted April 15, 2003 03:28 PM
I think one thing that should be done as far as marketing goes, for series that are split up, is to dispense with silly titles like "Dynamic Duo archives". "Silver Age Batman archives", while less clever sounding, is vastly more informative. The same goes for "Dark Knight archives". Name it "Batman in Batman Comics" and name the other one "Batman in Detective Comics". IP: Logged |
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quincyjb Member |
posted April 15, 2003 03:40 PM
quote: I hate to say this, but I consider All-Star #9 - 11 to be the three highest priority volumes remaining to be done. If the program were cancelled tomorrow, and they were allowed three volumes to close out the series, these would be the ones to do. The historical importance of the JSA, combined with scarcity of original copies, and adding bragging rights for DC, make these the most needed volumes. Since DC can and does reprint more recent series in hardcover, apart from the archives line, I would say that recent comics runs -- say, 1980 to present -- should not be considered for inclusion in the 200 or so hypothetical archives left. Working within the 200 limit, (again, I hate to say this), DC should reprint as many Golden Age volumes as possible. The scarcity of the original issues in any grade warrants such a decision. What would I personally like to see? Most of the Julie Schwartz Silver Age titles from before the exodus of Broome and Fox. A ballpark figure would be that this material could provide, oh, seventy volumes. Add to that all sorts of Fawcett reprints of Cap and the Marvel Family. I would guess that this material could be used for another eighty volumes before I lost interest. I would finish out the remaining volumes with carefully picked volumes of Golden Age and Silver Age series, probably no more than two volumes from each selected series. IP: Logged |
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realityboy Member |
posted April 15, 2003 05:06 PM
i think the archives could really go on indefinitely. it's not really a generational thing. 40-something guys (ok, not sure about the demographics exactly--suspect that most people that buy archives do so on amazon or some other online retailer and aren't exactly representative of most comic fans) are buying the line now, but in 20 years the punks that are reading new comics now will be older and able to afford high-end books such as these. most will probably either start mid-series or pick up series that started later. if the line does keep going for 20 years or so, then there is no good reason for the archives not to go past 1970 because at that time the books will have been out of print for over 50 years. it is amazing to come to this board and see people talk about the '70s as if they were just a few months ago while on most other boards posters can't remember what happened before grant morrison starting writing the jla. personally, i'm not interested in the golden age material being reprinted. i'd much rather have silver age up to present. and i could conceivable see someone that is significantly younger than me--like y'know being born now--wanting current age stuff reprinted instead of silver age. has anyone mapped out an azrael archive? (or the masterwork that would include the heroes reborn?) so, no, everything won't be reprinted, but it would be shortsighted for dc to limit what is reprinted to specific time periods. IP: Logged |
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Melkor Member |
posted April 15, 2003 05:39 PM
quote: I agree, as much as it annoys me to say so. Although I find much of DC's golden age output crude and uninteresting, I agree that these should get attention before silver age volumes if there was a definite, known imit to the number of new archive slots available in the future.
quote: You must have read my mind! The only caveat I would add is that after the marvel Family and Schwartz silver age stuff was done I'd use the remaining volumes strictly on stuff with artwork by the all-time greats. If it were my decision I'd put completing golden age Hawkman ahead of completing golden age GL any time, for example. Mark IP: Logged |
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srca1941 Member |
posted April 15, 2003 09:22 PM
Hmm, if the 200 volume estimate were accurate, at 12 volumes per year, we'd have everything in 16 years! Me thinks it's a large underestimate. Here's what I think is more plausible. Let's say that from the period of 1935-1970, there is an average of 32 pages of reprintable, marketable, material per book, and oh, 10 books per month. Per month, that is 320 pages of material, 3,840 per year. Multiply that by 35 years, that's 134,400 pages. At roughly 210 pages of material per volume, that is 640 volumes. At 12 per year, that's 53 1/3 years. 14 per year, almost 46 years. 16 is 40 years, 18 is 35, and 24 is about 26 1/2 years. If we keep growing the number per year, we may get the most important stuff in reasonable time. -Steve ------------------ IP: Logged |
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vze2 Member |
posted April 15, 2003 09:33 PM
quote: I really wish we would talk about this more often, and I'm glad to see the responses below. Every time I bring this up, too many people say that there's no reason we can't have everything. DC listens to the survey where people are forced to prioritize, and I think they would listen to us if we seriously debated priorities on these threads. You can always get people to support your favorite Archive, but it's more difficult to get them to choose your favorite over the other viable choices. The latter is more interesting to DC in my opinion. IP: Logged |
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