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 Have you become desensitized to archive and masterwork prices? (Page 1)
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| Author | Topic: Have you become desensitized to archive and masterwork prices? |
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stoter1 Member |
posted March 27, 2003 11:39 AM
 
When I bought my first archive on ebay for 24 bucks, I remeber how enraged I was that DC was charging 50 bucks for a hard cover book that archived comic books. i swore then that I would never pay more than 25 dollars for these books, no matter hat. And for a long time I didn't. Then, at some point, my store owner said that he would sell me old archives for 30 dollars, and i figured well, I can suport my local shop, so it's worth it, so I went up to thirty. Then he offered me new archives for 35, and I went along with this. Last week was the last straw. I paid 40 bucks for the Spectre archives, and didnt bat an eye. A year ago, this would have been unimagineable. IP: Logged |
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DWM Member |
posted March 27, 2003 12:29 PM
Excellent topic. I think the scenario you describe is pretty standard fare. And really you could apply it to any product. But I'll tell you three specific factors that desensitized me to the price tag. (1) Knowing why Archives cost what they do lends a great deal of perspective. Two years ago I was unaware of the great amount of restoration that goes into a volume. Pure labor costs aside even, that there are artists out there who are employed preserving Golden and Silver Age material is my idea of a good cause. (2) I studied art and art history in college, and for some reason I tend to view Archives less as "general reading material" and more as "art books." Part of this is the preservation aspect; some Archives I do read as much for the history and graphic design as for pleasure. Another thing is I understand they're a specialty product. If you've looked at the prices on art books, they're invariably expensive. I have my eye on a Leonardo book from the exhibit that's at the Met right now. It's a nice big book, but it's got a $65 price tag. Seeing as how Archives are just big books of color plates, and then seeing what other such books cost -- Archives often look like a bargain. (3) Book prices in general have become astronomical. Here I'm talking novels and stuff that's simply typeset. If it's not on the NYT bestseller list, it's probably at least $25 in hardcover. Quality paperbacks are about $15, and even mass paperbacks are $7-10. I read some other specialty areas like history, classics, mythology, etc., and you can easily expect to pay $25-40 for a paperback in these sections. That last point underscores a very significant factor. There hasn't been a price increase in Archives (except that $60 Dark Knight way back when) in ten years. $50 back then was pretty crazy, but the market has grown into the price. Now it's reasonable, if not a bargain. And of course, it's also important that if you know your stuff you're not paying $50 anyway. With my local shop, I'm at $38 for old volumes and $40 for new ones. So yes, Archives produce an initial sticker shock. But for me, it's not really a case of being desensitized -- because when I put it all into perspective, I can easily find the value in the product. - David IP: Logged |
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RWIGBOOKS Member |
posted March 27, 2003 12:35 PM
I don't buy every archive title but the ones I do buy I get on ebay or other discounted sites because I won't pay the full $50 for such a small book page wise. I am SO wishing they would get back to the JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA archives. The last one was Vol. 7 about 2 years ago, maybe longer. I still say I would be a little more willing to pay the $50 for some of the titles if they would beef up the page count. I receently picked up the NATMAN DYNAMIC DUO archive and was high disappointed that I paid $35 for a book that only reprinted 11 issues. I also didn't like that they did both BATMAN & DETECTIVE issues in one volume. Does this mean when and if they ever get the regular aarchives for these titles up to this point that they won't put the sstories included here in the correct order wwith thee regulaar archive books? Randy IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted March 27, 2003 12:49 PM
Randy, you need to check out The Archive Schedule as We Know It thread. It has a listing of all known future Archives, including the Justice League volume in May. IP: Logged |
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friend Member |
posted March 27, 2003 01:10 PM
Very funny you should ask... I'm in Canada - I paid the regular price of 82$ and then with taxes...almost 100$ for one Superman archive. I went to amazon.ca and I got two archives for 110$ bucks, transport and everything... At this price, it's getting better but, as you should ask - it's still a skyrocket price for comic books and yet, I don't it so expensive as I first ever did...and...I wonder why??? ------------------ IP: Logged |
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CMCINTYRE3600 Member |
posted March 27, 2003 01:32 PM
For years I concidered the Archives to be out of reach. $50 seemed way too much to pay for 250 or so pages of comics, no matter how old. But as time went on and inflation happened and I got out of school, and finally I learned that these could be had for around $35 or so, I gave in. I bought a couple together from Amazon. Had some cash burnin a hole in my pocket. I believe it was All Star v1, GL vol 1, and GA GL vol 1 (always been a big GL fan). Now, only a few short months later I've got about 20 (with no more savings, but hey! that's what money's there for, right?  ). It was actually this board that got me hooked. I started lurking here after hearing about it on the DC Direct board. Seeing you guys talk about how great these things are piqued my interest, and now I'm hooked. I've always been a completist. I guess I never realized how great it was to have access to all this wonderfull Golden Age material (I've got a couple SA Archives, but it's the Golden Age that interests me the most). Now I can't wait to slowly aquire all of them (figure it'll only take me 4 or 5 years IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted March 27, 2003 01:58 PM
quote: The best part about the Archives is that they stay in print. You don't have to feel panicked that you are missing out if you are unable to buy a volume this month. The book will still be there when are able to buy it. There's no way I would have had the any enthusiasm for this program when I started buying Archives in 2000 if many older volumes had been allowed to stay out of print. It seems sort of futile to pick up the latest volume of "All-Star Archives" when the first three are out of print. I hope Marvel has learned something regarding this. With 32 Re-Masterworks coming in the next 12 months, none of us johnnt-come-latelys will be able to absord that flood. It'll take the better part of a decade to get caught up with Masterworks if they start issuing new ones. IP: Logged |
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CMCINTYRE3600 Member |
posted March 27, 2003 02:29 PM
quote: I agree completely. It seems like some are a bit more plentiful (and hence cheaper) than others. For some reason it's hard to find a copy of Flash Archvies vol 1 for under $40. Same with some other older vol 1's (Shazam and Plastic man come to mind). But none are ever off the table. Maybe now I'll pick up some of the new editions of the Masterworks, but I have to say that they're defenetly going to be at a lower priority than the Archives, and if Marvel doesn't keep them in print over the long term, they're going to loose my dollars. Simple as that. I won't buy a vol 3 if I don't have both 1 and 2. Just the way I am. So if those go out of print, then I just won't be buying that line. I've looked into the Masterworks a bit, but they just seemed to confusing for me to get into. All the different trade dresses made it hard, plus the fact that it seemed as though the Masterworks were numbered as one line, so while Vol 1 may be Spider-Man, vol 2 might be Thor or something. If they can get their act together, they can get some of my money. If not I have no problem giving it all to DC. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted March 28, 2003 02:24 AM
I'm spoiled. For close to 30 years, I've gotten all my comics-related stuff (and often most of my other reading matter) at a good discount, or been able to borrow what i didn't want to pay for. So I guess I'm less sensitive to archive prices than some people are--although I have to say that I can't imagine anyone starting out collecting very many lines of monthlies at $2.50 to $4.00 a pop. It's standard comics prices that really shock me. IP: Logged |
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NecessaryImpurity Member |
posted March 28, 2003 02:46 AM
Actually, comics prices aren't that far out of line with expectation. When Action Comics debuted, we got new material for about $0.002/page of content (adds not counted). That cost had doubled by 1955 (17 years), when comics had shrunk in half. The cost had doubled again in 18 years (1973), when the standard comic went to $0.20/issue or $0.008/page of content. Then, hyperinflation set in, and it took only 3 years (!!!) for comics to double again, to $0.017/page of content. Both price had gone up and page-counts had dropped. The next doubling was 1987, 11 years later. Cover price was $0.75, and cost per page was $0.033. Not quite back to the pre-hyperinflation days, but not bad. The cost had doubled again by 1994, after 7 years. Not so good. Cover prices were up to $1.50, the cost per page at $0.065. The next doubling is when comics hit around $0.128/page, or $3.00 per issue. Because of differential pricing, some comics are already there. But others aren't, and the kid-friendly ___ Adventures line is still at $2.25. We've managed 9 years without doubling the entry-level comics, so that's not to bad. I doubt they'll be able to stretch it 15+ like the old days, but it ain't the bad ol' '70s, neither. IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted March 28, 2003 02:56 AM
Comics prices for individual issues have in fact just about kept pace with mass-market paperbacks since I started buying both in 1958--up about 3000% in both cases. By contrast, hardcover books (up only perhaps 1000% or less) and movies (up about 800%) seem like bargains, But I still choke at pretty much all of 'em. Three bucks for 10 minutes' reading? That makes cocaine seem cheap. Hardcover comics collections, however, being a relatively new product, and (with a few exceptions <coughNewTeenTitanscough> ) reproducing astronomically-expensive material, seem easier for me to take. As DWM said, they're hardcovers full of full color art plates. IP: Logged |
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Carlo Member |
posted March 28, 2003 03:10 AM
Well, considering my last name isn't Gates or Trump, the price of archives still "gets my attention", hence my selective purchases at discount oriented places, such as Amazon or Tales of Wonder... But, I second James' point mentioned above - the price of the "monthly" is/has gotten to me - for the past 2/3 years I've been down to 'bout 5-7 monthly titles, with an odd Essential or Archive tossed in... Best... IP: Logged |
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Carlo Member |
posted March 28, 2003 03:14 AM
oh, but hell, fair is fair... my interest in comics has waned considerably over the last four years - veteran posters may recall my "rediscovery" of Civil War (Confederate, natch!) history... While I don't bat an eye paying $35.00 for Bollett's Civil War Medicine via the historybookclub.com, I still bitch, wail and moan at comic prices... go figger... best... IP: Logged |
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segaboi24 Member |
posted March 28, 2003 05:09 AM
for me it comes down to a very simple logic if i really want it,i'll pay what price necessary for it.and being out here in australia archives can be about 110 australian dollars,though i get a discount from my comic store,and it only costs me around 92 dollars Jess IP: Logged |
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Corrosive Kid Member |
posted March 28, 2003 05:21 AM
I'd like to see a cost-analysis report for the price of newspapers over the years. After all, comics used to be sold at newsstands, both were relatively cheap, and both began as disposable commodities. I'd like to see someone pay $4 for a newspaper, and they take longer than ten minutes to read. (Yeah, yeah, I know, newspapers are subsidized by ads. Well, once upon a time, comics used to be able to count on advertising revenue to keep costs down, too. Whatever happened to those days?) IP: Logged |
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Lee Semmens Member |
posted March 28, 2003 05:27 AM
quote: Where do you buy your archives from? IP: Logged |
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RWIGBOOKS Member |
posted March 28, 2003 10:50 AM
NecessaryImpurity: Thanks SO much for that information. I read the schedule and will be going back to read the entire topic. Randy IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted March 28, 2003 12:47 PM
quote: I dunno. It looks to me as if the ads in comics these days (video games, toys, movies, etc. are much higher-end than what we used to see--novelties and seed companies and bodybuilders. DC must collect a lot more than they used to for them. So why isn't it reflected in the cover price? Maybe circulation is down so low that even high ad revenues are barely keeping titles afloat. IP: Logged |
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Wayne1776 Member |
posted March 28, 2003 02:25 PM
To answer the question of this thread's topic: No. I am very aware of the price of these two high-end books. Now I try to find the best prices. I was loyal to the various Comic Book Shops that I also bought my comics from, but a period of umemployment, and rising comic book prices made me come to a hard decision and buy by mail from out of state. In my past, particularly when I was active duty in the militar, I always "bit the bullet," as it were, to buy genre related books in tpb and hardback format even though the cost at times was what I considered high. The HAWKMAN tpb comes to mind. Fairly low print run and a high price for the time of publication, but I bought it because I wanted the comic book reprints in it. Likewise the WALT SIMONSON tpb. When Archives and Masterworks hit the scene, (I believe Masterworks were first) I was a happy fanboy. $39.95 for the Archives and even less for the Masterworks - $29.95. (I always thought the Archives were the better produced of the two series, however. But, the Masterworks were fun and I got all 27 of 'em.) I have stuck with the Archives and now own 74 of them. Whereas I sold my Masterworks on e-bay except for Silver Surfer that Sal Buscema singned to me (what a great guy he is!) Then I moved again and the new shop was - yikes!- 10% discount plus sales tax to equal a 3% discount. I might begin again with the Masterworks, as Dylanfan, seems to think they are finally on track to be a quality purchase, and I respect his opinion, and passion about the Masterworks. BTW, I was a non-traditional college student after I retired from the U.S. Army, and graduated in 1999. Textbooks are "similiar" to Archives with low print runs and limited audience, but Archives are a bargain compared to their prices. Talk about "sticker shock!" IP: Logged |
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CMCINTYRE3600 Member |
posted March 28, 2003 02:38 PM
Have you guys ever checked out Barnes and Noble's web site? I can't believe they can get away with only giving a $2.00 discount on these Archives! Especially with Amazon's competition, plus all the other discount web sites. The same with real, brick and mortar B&N's. I checked with a friend who worked there and she told me there is no discount, and even with her employee discount I'd be better off getting them off the net. You would think the country's largest book seller wold be able to offer a competiative price. Chris IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted March 28, 2003 04:32 PM
Not every retailer is a discounter. Neither the bookstore nor the comic shop I work at offers any discounts at all except to people in the trade. I think they're smart. Do the math--if a retailer gets a 50% discount on new merchandise, and they sell at 25% off, they have to sell twice as many copies as they would have to at full cover to make the same net profit. Why bother unless you think you can more than double your volume? IP: Logged |
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CMCINTYRE3600 Member |
posted March 28, 2003 04:57 PM
I guess that in my mind it's to keep the customer happy and comign back. I have 2 comic shops where I live. One where I get a good discount on Archives and DCD merchandice and monthlies and one where there is no discount. Archives are $50. Which shop do you think gets my money? Even if their proffit margin is lower, they pull a lot more total dollars from me (the only time I'll ever go to the other place is for back issues I really need because they have the largest selection). Isn't it better to keep a loyal, paying following at a lower profit margin? You'll increase your volume and in the long term your profits. Chris IP: Logged |
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James Friel Member |
posted March 28, 2003 05:21 PM
That makes sense if you're reasonably certain of becoming a high-volume store by pursuing that tactic, and provided that's the kind of store you want to have. The thinner your margin on the items you sell, the more ruthlessly you have to control your inventory (and all your costs). Some booksellers (relatively few in my experience) can cope with that style of doing business without turning themselves into Waldenbooks. For most shops, though, I think it simply amounts to giving money away. IP: Logged |
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vze2 Member |
posted March 28, 2003 05:57 PM
quote: So the government should fight the drug war by subsidizing comics? I am definitely not desensitized to price, although I think that prices are, for the most part, reasonable. I thought Tor was overpriced. And of course quote: I do get between $5 and $10 off through a mail-order company. They send me a catalog every month, and the convenience is worth the higher price for me. I agree with James about why stores offer discounts or not. I doubt Amazon or my mail-order company would survive without them. I believe these companies really do double there sales by offering the discounts. However, unless a real store is in intense competition with another local store, I think it makes less sense for these stores to offer discounts. The two major comic shops in my area compete in different ways. One has a better back-issue stock. The other has more gaming supplies and keeps recent back issues at cover price. While these stores can't compete with Amazon on price, they carry material not carried by Amazon (some people still buy monthlies) and allow you to browse. Provided you don't wait too long to pick your comics up, good stores will make sure they hold the comics you want. These services are what keeps everyone from jumping ship. If customers no longer find these services valuable, the shops will have to provide discounts. IP: Logged |
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Marty Raap Member |
posted March 28, 2003 07:43 PM
I have indeed become desensitized to Archive prices. But I also can't feel heat or cold, and I have no human feelings of any kind, so go figure. I blame it on all these comics I read. IP: Logged |
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