posted March 16, 2003 12:11 AM            

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Originally posted by Corrosive Kid:
Not to beat up on you, Aldous,

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Don't flatter yourself.

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but that's not how it worked. Superboy had a hypnotic suggestion that caused him to forget details about himself when he returned to the past. It didn't involve any external sources - it was all internal. This was especially shown in the story in which he met his future descendent, Laurel Kent, and was told who she was. Upon returning to Smallville, he immeadiately forgot about her, even though he was thinking about her on the trip home.

Or, as Wildfire put it, "Tell him, Laurel! He won't remember when he returns to his own time! We used super-hypnosis to block out any knowledge of his own future!"

Y'ain't calling Wildfire a liar, is ya?

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Thanks for clarifying things for me. But it still doesn't solve the problem I brought up.

Superboy joins Supergirl for a mission in the 30th Century to assist the Legionnaires. They are in the 30th Century world for days (maybe weeks). They fight side-by-side, converse, etc. etc.

Now, when Superboy starts his faster-than-light return trip to his regular 20th Century, the "mental block" acts to erase any knowledge of his cousin. (He will discover her existence for the first time, as far as he is aware, when he is Superman.)

This cannot and would not work. He would either have to retain every single memory of his stay in the 30th Century, or entirely forget he ever WAS in the 30th Century.

Why?

I'll have to draw a clumsy analogy between Superboy's super-memory (heck, even a "normal" memory) and a videotape. Imagine everything experienced by Superboy in his 30th Century adventure had been videotaped. Fine. For reasons of simplicity, let's pretend this videotape is Superboy's memory, even though his actual memory would be infinitely more detailed visually and emotionally.

The problem with this mental block is this. The mental block will allow Superboy to retain the memories of his adventures with the Legion, the conversations he had with various people from the 30th Century -- everything that happened that included him. Every real moment Superboy was a part of will stay with him -- think of the scenes on a videotape -- except that now every recorded scene has Supergirl removed.

In the 30th Century battles, Superboy saw Supergirl take out Evil-Android with one punch. Upon arriving in the 20th Century, what memeory does Superboy have? Evil-Android just sort of... fell over? Has Evil-Android been erased as well? Then why, thinks, Superboy, did I stare at that empty plot of ground for so many seconds feeling great concern?

Superboy has various conversations with Supergirl and other Legionnaires. Heck, plenty of three-way talks, I imagine. Now, who is saying Supergirl's lines? She has been erased. Superboy remembers talking to Wildfire, but why does everything seem all screwed-up...? Wildfire replies to questions no one asked. Superboy is addressing a blank wall as if someone was there. No? That's erased too? Then who the hell is Wildfire talking to? No one's there. Erase the parts of Wildfire's conversation that included Supergirl. It's like a movie edited by a very stoned editorial assistant. Best remove Wildfire altogether. But then why does Superboy remember flying off, through the air, as if someone was with him, leading him, because we couldn't have Wildfire popping into the video mid-scene -- he's been erased. But Superboy didn't know where he himself was going (he remembers that much). Yet he got there somehow. Now he sees Evil-Android, but remembers feeling unfazed as if someone else was dealing with the problem, rushing ahead of him to do battle.

No, boys... we'll have to cut the whole scene. Everything.

You can't make holes in memories. It's like extracting certain bricks here and there from the foundation of a building: the whole thing is going to crumble.

posted March 16, 2003 01:42 AM               

One approach might be a subtle instruction to Superboy not to dwell on those memories--particularly in those sensitive areas--very much. If this were the technique used, it could avoid "wiping out" anything at all, in fact; Superboy is just told not to think about certain things, or if he does think about them, his mind just slides off that point onto something else. The knowlege isn't removed--it just bacomes impossible to access when he's in the 20th Century, and he's told not to worry about that, or even to notice it.

posted March 16, 2003 04:03 PM            

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Why are we thinking about this?

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Thinking about what?

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Fuzzy memories about what? Were we talking about something important?

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Did someone say something?

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posted March 16, 2003 06:26 PM               

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Originally posted by Aldous:

You can't make holes in memories.

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I dunno. I have "holes" in my memories all the time, depending on what I happen to be paying attention to at a given moment.

I went to church this morning and supervised 18 deacons. If you asked me now to name every single one of them, I couldn't without looking at the roster. I remember important interactions (showing someone how to serve communion, for example), but even they will fade in time.

And if you were to ask me what any of them were wearing -- forget it!

Although Superboy (unlike me) must have been playing close attention when Villan X was defeated by Supergirl, his memory losses were probably experienced in the same way. He knows Villan X was defeated (just as I know there were 18 deacons in church today), he just can't remember how. It might be like a word or a name on the tip of your tongue -- you know you know it, but you can't pin it down.

An example of this was shown in ADVENTURE #341, which I mentioned earlier. The Legion defeats Computo with a device found in the Batcave, which reveals to Superboy his future partnership with Batman. But, as he travels through the timestream back to his own era, Superboy remembers that the Legion defeated Computo -- he just can't remember how.

As far as Superboy not remembering conversations he might have with Supergirl -- yes, that would probably trouble him a bit. But perhaps his imagination "fills in the blanks," as it were. If I have a conversation with three people I barely know at a party, I may not remember them (or their names, at the least) a week later. I may misremember someone else being present who wasn't. Or I may remember just two people and the jist of the conversation, instead of specific words. Perhaps Superboy also remembers his Legion converstations in such generalities.

posted March 16, 2003 07:28 PM               

Hey! Let's not gloss over this Superboy talkin' three-ways with Supergirl and other Legionnaires bit!

NOW we're talkin weird relationships!

posted March 16, 2003 11:33 PM               

I think I vaguely remember some Ask the AnswerMan columns from the late 1970s or early 1980s where people asked if there was an Earth-2 Legion of Super-Heroes. I always thought an interesting Earth-2 Legion could be made with the original versions of the Legion--Lightning Boy and so forth, and maybe have Power Girl be a member. But Earth-2 was never shown in the 30th Century, as far as I know.

posted March 17, 2003 12:27 AM            

I thought maybe there was one Earth 2 story in Weisinger at some time. Mort surely couldn't resist the chance to use another kind of what-if story. But I haven't found any (although my Lois Lanes and Jimmy Olsens are quite thin for the sixties).

I'm tending to think that Earth 2 Superman in the Superman comics themselves only really became a hard and fast reality starting in the letter pages edited by E. Nelson Bridwell. There, ENB outlines some differences between E2 Superman and E1 (before that in the one or two JLA appearances that E2 Superman made there wasn't much difference shown).

posted March 17, 2003 10:55 AM               

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Originally posted by Corrosive Kid:
There was no Earth-2 Legion of Super-Heroes because there was no Earth-2 Superboy. No inspiration, no Legion. At least, that's what the Answer Man told us.

I don't think the Earth-2 Superman showed up in the Silver Age until late in the sixties, and then just in the Julie Schwartz titles. I don't believe they even intended for there to be Earth-2 counterparts for the big three until fans started hassling them about it.

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posted March 17, 2003 11:44 AM               

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Originally posted by Corrosive Kid:
...I don't believe they even intended for there to be Earth-2 counterparts for the big three until fans started hassling them about it.

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Make that "Big Two." Wonder Woman showed up in the first JSA reappearances in The Flash.

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"My country, right or wrong--when right, to be kept right; when wrong, to be put right."
Henry Clay

posted March 17, 2003 12:02 PM            

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Originally posted by CMCINTYRE3600:
Well, we saw the E2 Wonder Woman as early as the second "Earth 2" story ever (An issue of Flash, forget the issue number, but reprinted in the JSA 100 page giant of a few years ago).

Actually, it [#137] was the third E-2 story, after FLASH #123 and #129 [which did feature a cameo from the JSA]

She was shown with the JSA in their first Silver Age appearance. I don't know about Superman and Batman, since they were only peripheral members of the JSA.

Once again, as per the DCD board - not in the sixties and seventies, Superman more so than Batman. E-2 Superman first physically appears in JLA #73 [1969] and Bats [aside from an "imaginary story" in DETECTIVE in '66] in JLA #82 [1970] - they were mentioned before hand in JLA #55 [1967; both of 'em] and Bats was mentioned in GREEN LANTERN #61 [1968].

Supes looked identical to his E-1 counterpart until 1973 - same "s", no grey temples, and Bats' two panels in JLA #82 couldn't make up their mind whether or not he had the yellow circle. Supes appears as a JSAer in JLA #73,74,82,83,91,92,107,108,159 - up to the dawn of the eighties, as well as his All-Star appearances [off the top of my head - #61-65, 69,70, 74?] and Bats pulls in JLA #82, 135-137 as a JSAer, but plays important roles in JSA stories as Wayne in All-Star #62?-70, plus the first JSA ADVENTURE stories. And of course, as the impetus for AMERICA VS. THE JSA. [Y'could argue that Supes was the impetus for Infinity, Inc.'s Generations Saga too]. But nothing I say can convince you that at least the Man of Tomorrow was MUCH more than a peripheral member of the SA/BA JSA...

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