posted February 16, 2003 03:19 PM            

It seems to me DC had a lot of options in their credits for this archive--they could have credited the Bob Kane studio, or jointly credited Kane & Moldoff, or just left out the credits entirely. Personally, I'd prefer an archive without a contents page or biographies--rather than one that deliberately omits and misleads.

It probably would have made for confusion, though, if they had credited Moldoff AND included the Bob Kane text piece from 'Tec 328--since those would contradict each other.

As far as the Bob Kane studio goes, while I'd accept that as a credit, I don't think he really had a studio set-up in the fifties and sixties. DC has credited the Shuster studio, Eisner studio, and HG Peter studio in other archives--but those guys did have a studio set-up with numerous artists working in the same space AND themselves involved as master artist overseer.

From what I understand, Moldoff got his assignments from Bob and then went home and worked on his pages independently--then giving back the pages to Kane, who might make a few suggestions for corrections (in the role of an editor or art director). For a time Moldoff and Kane lived close-by (socialized together) so Bob could drop by Shelley's or Shelley could drop by Bob's. It seems like an informal studio to me--if we can call it a studio at all.

posted February 16, 2003 06:35 PM               

I have used your Who Drew Batman & Who Drew Superman webpages many times as a resource. Give yourself a link and a plug and come back often to visit.

posted February 17, 2003 04:37 PM            

It's my feeling that Chic Stone took over as ghost in the March 1968 coverdated issues--BATMAN 200 & DETECTIVE 373. But even after this there is one Moldoff pencilling job in the Robin back-up from BATMAN 202 (which GCD credits to Chic Stone). My theory is that this story was done a few months ahead of time, when Moldoff was still ghosting, and then not used until that issue.

BATMAN 197, December 1967, is troubling in particular because I have gone back and forth on this. Sometimes I think it's Chic Stone sometimes Moldoff. But if I'm right about Stone, then I don't think he was ghosting yet when this issue was prepared for publication (given the lag between cover date, onsale date, and publishing time--the split between Kane and Moldoff probably happened in the middle of 1967). The GCD credits the interior art on this issue to Frank Springer--but I doubt that too. Looking at it last night, I came to feel that it was Moldoff, but Moldoff heavily inked and embellished by Sid Greene.

Sid Greene's inks become increasingly more heavy-handed from 1964 to 1968. Probably at the urging of Julie Schwartz. And because of this it gets harder and harder to spot a Moldoff, but--in his positioning of the figure--Moldoff tips his hand.

posted February 17, 2003 06:14 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by India Ink:
I have some question about the GCD credits given for Bob Kane ghosted stories in 1967-68.

It's my feeling that Chic Stone took over as ghost in the March 1968 coverdated issues--BATMAN 200 & DETECTIVE 373. But even after this there is one Moldoff pencilling job in the Robin back-up from BATMAN 202 (which GCD credits to Chic Stone). My theory is that this story was done a few months ahead of time, when Moldoff was still ghosting, and then not used until that issue.

BATMAN 197, December 1967, is troubling in particular because I have gone back and forth on this. Sometimes I think it's Chic Stone sometimes Moldoff. But if I'm right about Stone, then I don't think he was ghosting yet when this issue was prepared for publication (given the lag between cover date, onsale date, and publishing time--the split between Kane and Moldoff probably happened in the middle of 1967). The GCD credits the interior art on this issue to Frank Springer--but I doubt that too. Looking at it last night, I came to feel that it was Moldoff, but Moldoff heavily inked and embellished by Sid Greene.

Sid Greene's inks become increasingly more heavy-handed from 1964 to 1968. Probably at the urging of Julie Schwartz. And because of this it gets harder and harder to spot a Moldoff, but--in his positioning of the figure--Moldoff tips his hand.

The Evanier piece makes one think that ALL art had the Bob Kane box, but this isn't true. Infantino's art didn't have the Bob Kane box, for example. So I think it was only the actual ghosts (guys working directly for Kane) who had the box on their art. I don't know if Frank Springer ever ghosted Bob Kane. If he was independent, like Infantino, then his art would not have had the box (the art in BATMAN 197 has the box) and this would support my feeling that he did not pencil that story.

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posted February 17, 2003 06:32 PM            

I think that Greene would be well-practiced at doing all the Infantino swipes. Those swipes aside, when I compare Springer/Greene credited work with 197 it doesn't look like Springer--unless Springer was trying not to be Infantino in 197. His credited work with Greene is very Infantino throughout.

I guess it's possible that Springer might have changed his style once the Bob Kane contract was renegotiated.

But if what I thought was Moldoff is really Stone, then there's someone else (Bob Brown?) ghosting Kane in 1967-68, since I see a clear difference between Stone (that looks like Moldoff to me--in the Robin back-up for 202, as an example) and Stone (in 200 for example). The one in 200 does look more Kirby in terms of action sequences and panel lay-outs.

That 1964 date really throws me, however, and I'll have to look at all these issues with fresh eyes sometime.

posted February 17, 2003 06:46 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Nichols:
Welcome to the Archives Board whoswhoz!

I have used your Who Drew Batman & Who Drew Superman webpages many times as a resource. Give yourself a link and a plug and come back often to visit.

-Scott

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posted February 17, 2003 06:59 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by India Ink:
Stone in 1964? Now I have to re-evaluate my whole collection, darn.

I think that Greene would be well-practiced at doing all the Infantino swipes. Those swipes aside, when I compare Springer/Greene credited work with 197 it doesn't look like Springer--unless Springer was trying not to be Infantino in 197. His credited work with Greene is very Infantino throughout.

I guess it's possible that Springer might have changed his style once the Bob Kane contract was renegotiated.

But if what I thought was Moldoff is really Stone, then there's someone else (Bob Brown?) ghosting Kane in 1967-68, since I see a clear difference between Stone (that looks like Moldoff to me--in the Robin back-up for 202, as an example) and Stone (in 200 for example). The one in 200 does look more Kirby in terms of action sequences and panel lay-outs.

That 1964 date really throws me, however, and I'll have to look at all these issues with fresh eyes sometime.

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posted February 18, 2003 06:10 AM               

That is assuming he's able to make it to work today...

posted February 18, 2003 11:37 AM            

When Kitchen Sink reprinted the daily and Sunday strips, there was a signed, limited edition. If I remember correctly, Dick Sprang's signature was the draw for me. In any case, I had to struggle to pay for these, but eventually I got them.

In addition to Kane and Sprang, all of the other survivors signed each volume: Jack Burnley, Charles Paris, and Alvin Schwartz. Jack Burnley even has a color drawing on the signature plate of the Sunday volume. I'm sorry I can't scan it for you guys.

In any case, the Sunday volume has extensive biographies of the people who worked on the strip. I think the biographies are alos in the non-limited edition and the softcover.

Jack Burnley has over a page plus a photo of him with his wife.

Don Cameron has a half page and a photo.

Whitney Ellsworth has a little more than half a page and a photo of him at his desk.

Bill Finger has a little more than half a page and a photo of him playing golf.

Bob Kane has about a half a page and a phot of him next to an easel-sized sketch of Batman. He was visiting a children's hospital and there are lots of kids in the picture.

Stan Kaye has a half page and a photo of him at the drawing board.

Win Mortimer also has a half page and a photo of him at the drawing board.

Charles Paris has about 3/4 of a page plus a photo of him with his wife.

Raymond Perry has a long paragraph.

Fred Ray has about a third of a page and a photo.

Jack Schiff has about a half page and a photo of him at work with Mort Weisinger and Bernie Breslauer (I don't know who he is).

Ira Schnapp has a couple of short paragraphs. They had trouble finding information on him.

Alvin Schwartz has a full page and a photo.

Dick Sprang has almost a full page and a photo.

I really appreciated the effort that Kitchen Sink took to research these biographies. I'd never heard of any of these guys except Dick Sprang. I'm also really glad that the survivors had the opportunity to sign it. All of the signatures look like they were written by people who cared. I know they couldn't have been paid much for their signatures, but I hope that they got something.

posted February 19, 2003 04:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:

Jack Schiff has about a half page and a photo of him at work with Mort Weisinger and Bernie Breslauer (I don't know who he is).

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posted February 19, 2003 06:46 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Lee Semmens:
Breslauer was a DC (or National Periodicals as they were called then) editor and writer, and apparently a very junior editor at that, of the early 1940s.

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posted February 26, 2003 10:53 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by India Ink:
Necessary Impurity, as you can see, GCD does credit Moldoff. That's not proof, but many sources have identified Moldoff in the past.

The funny thing is that Moldoff--in his own style is doing PSAs right along side these "Bob Kane" stories (with old Batman editor, Jack Schiff, writing the PSAs).

My eye (which I humbly confess is quite good for identifying artists) tells me that there's enough of a similarity between the PSAs and the Batman stories (despite the "Kane" style and the imposition of Giella's inks) that it's a good guess that the same penciller (ie. Moldoff) did both.

Then there's all the commission works that Moldoff has done since his dismissal by his partner, Bob Kane. Compare these commission works with those that Bob Kane did in his latter days (or at least those that he took credit for--it's impossible to trust Kane's word on anything). The Kane commissions look like a modified version of his late thirties/early forties credited works. The Moldoff commissions look almost precisely like his fifties and early sixties works. Moldoff's "old look" style is different from the "new look" but only slightly in superficial detail (the poses, the hand to the chin gestures, etc., are all classic Moldoff doing "Bob Kane").

It's also obvious to my eye that a new artist took over after Moldoff (identified as Chic Stone by researchers), so I can tell the difference between one ghost and another. Lew Schwartz preceded Moldoff and the difference is a lot harder to spot, but I think I could probably tell the difference (a messier kind of approach from Schwartz).

The only story that I'm dubious about in the archive is the one in BATMAN 167. It looks mostly like Moldoff as inked by Giella, but there are spots where it doesn't quite fit. Giella seems to have done a lot of extra background detail on this story (perhaps on the urging of Julie Schwartz to bring the art up to near the Infantino level), but some foreground figures and faces also don't match the Moldoff style. This could be Giella--there's an outside possibility that Bob Kane himself or another assistant had a hand in this, but I kinda doubt that. The last panels of the story in particular are not quite right. Bruce looks odd, and Dick Grayson looks like he has freckles. But this is one of those issues that I haven't yet added to my "new look" collection, so I can't compare the archive's restored art with the original published art.

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posted February 26, 2003 10:59 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:
Thanks for the link to Mark Evanier's columns, dylanfan. Anyone who is reading this thread and hasn't read those columns should do so.

When Kitchen Sink reprinted the daily and Sunday strips, there was a signed, limited edition. If I remember correctly, Dick Sprang's signature was the draw for me. In any case, I had to struggle to pay for these, but eventually I got them.

In addition to Kane and Sprang, all of the other survivors signed each volume: Jack Burnley, Charles Paris, and Alvin Schwartz. Jack Burnley even has a color drawing on the signature plate of the Sunday volume. I'm sorry I can't scan it for you guys.

In any case, the Sunday volume has extensive biographies of the people who worked on the strip. I think the biographies are alos in the non-limited edition and the softcover.

Jack Burnley has over a page plus a photo of him with his wife.

Don Cameron has a half page and a photo.

Whitney Ellsworth has a little more than half a page and a photo of him at his desk.

Bill Finger has a little more than half a page and a photo of him playing golf.

Bob Kane has about a half a page and a phot of him next to an easel-sized sketch of Batman. He was visiting a children's hospital and there are lots of kids in the picture.

Stan Kaye has a half page and a photo of him at the drawing board.

Win Mortimer also has a half page and a photo of him at the drawing board.

Charles Paris has about 3/4 of a page plus a photo of him with his wife.

Raymond Perry has a long paragraph.

Fred Ray has about a third of a page and a photo.

Jack Schiff has about a half page and a photo of him at work with Mort Weisinger and Bernie Breslauer (I don't know who he is).

Ira Schnapp has a couple of short paragraphs. They had trouble finding information on him.

Alvin Schwartz has a full page and a photo.

Dick Sprang has almost a full page and a photo.

I really appreciated the effort that Kitchen Sink took to research these biographies. I'd never heard of any of these guys except Dick Sprang. I'm also really glad that the survivors had the opportunity to sign it. All of the signatures look like they were written by people who cared. I know they couldn't have been paid much for their signatures, but I hope that they got something.

If you are interested and don't have The Sunday Classics, see if your local library can get it through interlibrary loan. The actual comics are pretty good too.

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