posted February 11, 2003 08:31 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KryptoSuperDog:
Golden Age Flash: End it with the first volume. Do not let this $49.95 madness persist!

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Krypto, for that most serious and grevious of blasphemies, you are hereby bannished for all eternity to the Forbidden Zone.

posted February 11, 2003 08:46 PM            

Sales alone will not work.

As James pointed out, Bob G. has said that there are "No stinkers." Bob has also stated repeatedly that no line should be considered dead except for the done-in-one Black Canary. So we have yet to find an Archive that doesn't earn a profit over time (no more than 5 years so far). Assuming that the market isn't flooded, I could probably think of at least 20 new lines that would be profitable.

DC could focus on only the most profitable lines. To some extent, this has been done by fast-tracking Legion. I have no problem with this. However, if DC publishes ONLY the most profitable Archives, we will see a line dominated by Superman, Batman, SA Flash, SA Green Lantern, yet another GL/GA and Deadman reprint and more Adams Archives. We will also see a large number of number 1s that are never that aren't continued. This is not the kind of program that I want to see.

posted February 11, 2003 08:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FOG:

Krypto, for that most serious and grevious of blasphemies, you are hereby bannished for all eternity to the Forbidden Zone.

Gary "thus saith the Golden Age Lawgiver" O.

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posted February 12, 2003 02:20 AM               

Here's more of my thought process on why we don't need further JLA and LSH volumes. I think my arguments are basically the same as vze2's, and he expresses himself better than I do, so you may want to skip this post and go back and re-read his instead. Okay, here goes.

Given that no volume published yet has lost money, I don't see the need to go with the "safe" choices of LSH and JLA.

Realistically, the archives will end before the majority of DC's pre-Crisis material has been reprinted. Each new volume published should be viewed not only as a continuation of a line, but as a lack of continuation of other lines. Frankly, I would like to see volume 1 of any of these (Adam Strange, Challengers of the Unknown, Brave and the Bold Teamups, SA Teen Titans, Metamorpho, Metal Men, Martian Manhunter, Lois Lane, Rip Hunter, Sea Devils, Jimmy Olsen) rather than volume 13 of LSH. The cost and difficulty tracking down the issues for any of these volume 1's is ridiculously large compared to that required to find the books for LSH volume 13.

So, am I argueing that DC should quit reprinting LSH and JLA with their last archive volumes? No, not necessarily. There were some good stories in these books, and the 1970s production values were pretty bad. Reprinting these stories in a nicer package makes sense.

I would like to see these lines, and others that reach the 1970s, continue reprinting in tpbs that would not count against the annual tally of archives.

The pre-1970s material is largely klunky and dated. I say this with great fondness for the material. It makes sense for DC to publish them in ultra-expensive hardbacks that break even on sales of (just guessing here) 4200 or so. These books are going to sell mostly to an older audience looking for a nostalgia trip, with a significant chunk of change to blow on such things. The high price tag does reduce the total sales, but not to the same extent that it would if the target audience were younger.

posted February 12, 2003 03:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FOG:

Krypto, for that most serious and grevious of blasphemies, you are hereby bannished for all eternity to the Forbidden Zone.

Gary "thus saith the Golden Age Lawgiver" O.

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posted February 12, 2003 01:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:
I was wondering how long that comment was going to go without a response from you.

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Actually, I was awaiting another defender of the faith to respond.

posted February 12, 2003 01:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by KryptoSuperDog:
Sorry, Gary...I got out. However, while I was there, I saw a copy of GA Flash Archives #2, 3, 4, 5, and so on. Haw haw! Bring on Legion Archives #12! Woo-hooo!

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Seeing those Archives in there would explain alot. I wonder if the real Bob G. wasn't somehow transported there and the one we have posting here isn't some imposter bent on making sure we never get anymore of Jay's Archives.

Gary "just kidding, Bob. Just kidding." O.

posted February 12, 2003 04:19 PM               

Oh yeah, I WAS trying to be funny. I was just thinking of the Death Star schematics scene in STAR WARS, the 1st time I'd seen a thing like that, and it seemed technology might be racing that way way too fast for anyone's good.

I recall complaints about the painted color in some SPIRIT reprints, and the various styles used in KS's reprints-- and how much I wound up liking the B&W art with the zips added more than any of them.

Then there was the time my printer said to me the colors on my own comic looked "flat" to him compared to the modern "norm". YEAH. I had fun putting in lots of special effects where they'd count (the Steranko influence, no doubt) but most of it was old-fashioned 60's-style bold flat solid colors-- with a 90's-computer-controlled finesse, of course!

"I'd say maybe GA Flash, or the latest Superman in Action. But that's a VERY uninformed guess."

SUPERMAN in ACTION was a bit frustrating when I got it, 'cause it made me realize just how much they'd screwed up the first time out by not including it all in one single chronological set. They got it RIGHT when they did WONDER WOMAN, though!

Golden Age FLASH was one of my favorites-- I liked it far more than the Silver Age FLASH! (But then, I've noticed for a long time that 40's DCs just seem a lot more fun and exciting and uninhibited, compared to the slicker but duller 60's DCs. (Maybe that's what happens when a comic-book company has all their employees wearing business suits and trying to act like "grown-ups" and thinking that they're better than everyone else out there, while simultaneously holding the material they produce and its intended audience in contempt... sorry, too many COMIC BOOK ARTIST and ALTER EGO articles & interviews...!)

"...for that most serious and grevious of blasphemies, you are hereby bannished for all eternity to the Forbidden Zone."

MY GOD!!! You're banishing someone to CAMDEN, New Jersey??? (That's worse than sending them to DETROIT!)

posted February 12, 2003 05:00 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by profh0011:

"...for that most serious and grevious of blasphemies, you are hereby bannished for all eternity to the Forbidden Zone."

MY GOD!!! You're banishing someone to CAMDEN, New Jersey??? (That's worse than sending them to DETROIT!)

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posted February 13, 2003 01:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by CMCINTYRE3600:
On a related note, be on the look out for JLCamden, a new ongoing series by DC Comics, written by Ron Marz, set to replace the current JLA title. Watch as the new Justice League, comprised of J'onn J'onn, Plastic Man, Flamebird, the Manhunter clone, and a reformed Soloman Grundy set up up shop to clean up Camden.
Chris (from NJ and proud of it!)

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Actually, the new title will be called JLAC and be based on a new fighting force of two men. One will be named Bud and the other Lou, who happens to hail from Patterson, NJ.

posted February 13, 2003 03:12 PM               

Poor, deluded fools. They'll sink without a trace! (from one who lives there... heehee)

posted February 14, 2003 06:30 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Sean:
WW #4 would finish with Wonder Woman #10, and Sensation Comics # 31. But since Marston continued through to Wonder Woman #28 (and beyond) and Sensation #84, that’s about 6 more Archives worth of material- material that is just as imaginative and even more accessible than his early stuff. I’d rather see all the Marston stories Archived, and to hell with the Silver Age stuff, which was all crap anyway.

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posted February 15, 2003 06:53 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FOG:
Actually, I was awaiting another defender of the faith to respond.

Gary "being the Lawgiver is a lonely job" O.

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posted February 15, 2003 06:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by quincyjb:
vze2...expresses himself better than I do, so you may want to skip this post and go back and re-read his instead.

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Thanks. I followed your advice.

Just kidding.

Don't sell yourself short. I thought you expressed yourself well. I really liked your last two paragraphs and the following sentence:

quote:

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Each new volume published should be viewed not only as a continuation of a line, but as a lack of continuation of other lines.

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posted February 15, 2003 07:17 AM            

Since it's been a while, I'll briefly recap.
I believe that the number of slots will never be large enough to reprint everything. If you disagree, you will probably disagree with everything else I say. Sales alone doesn't work.

Quality alone doesn't work either.

More importantly, DC isn't using this as the only factor. The best comics haven't been Archived (GL/GA, Deadman, Swamp Thing, Starman, and more). Keep in mind that many Archives were produced before the slipcases. Some very bad comics, primarily from the Golden Age, have been Archived.

However, quality should be a factor.

posted February 15, 2003 07:33 AM            

The Hall of Fame and the All-Star team have different purposes and different rules, even though both groups are composed of great athletes. An inactive player cannot be considered for the All-Star team and a current player cannot be considered for the Hall of Fame.

posted February 15, 2003 07:50 AM            

Why would anyone want to buy GA Green Lantern in hardcover? Most people will tell you that this Archive is horrible. It was certainly one of the most difficult reading experiences I've had. Yet, I bought it and will buy every GA Green Lantern volume that DC decides to publish.

People who buy GA GL aren't doing it because this is the greatest comic ever. They aren't doing it because they prefer hardcovers to floppies. These people are buying GA GL for the chance to read comics that are otherwise unavailable.

Quality is by far the most important reason to publish Quiver in hardcover, but quality is by far the least important reason to publish the GA GL Archives.

posted February 15, 2003 08:21 AM            

However cost and scarcity are big factors for All-Star, GA Flash and GL. How many people would have bought these if they could easily get the original issues?

I would divide candidates into two groups: scarce, expensive comics and cheap, easy to find comics. Both groups are candidates for hardcovers. However, each group is discussed separately. Quiver never directly competes with GA GL.

The dividing line is not clear or straight. Some comics could go in either group. Legion is currently in the blurry area and near the exit. JLA is entering this area. SA Flash will get to this area somewhere around volume 10.

posted February 15, 2003 09:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by vze2:
I would divide candidates into two groups: scarce, expensive comics and cheap, easy to find comics. Both groups are candidates for hardcovers. However, each group is discussed separately. Quiver never directly competes with GA GL.

I'm not saying that these series have to end at these points. However, I am saying that the mission has been accomplished once we get there. Additional volumes are low priorities and should be done based on sales alone.

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EXCELLENT POINTS, vze2! The only other thing that I would add to the equation of Archives like GA GL is historical significance in the DC Universe. In other words, I believe it can be argued quite successfully that the GA versions of the Flash and Green Lantern are two of the top five characters in the DC Universe. They are also enduring characters (heck, Alan's still alive after all these years)! They were two of the first characters to be important enough to bridge the gap to the Silver Age, and of course they continue to this day.

I would hope that despite the "poor" quality of those early titles (heck, let's face it, the majority of the GA material could be argued to be poor by many folks), that DC will consider your points on scarcity AND my point about significance to the DC Universe.

posted February 15, 2003 06:08 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by whoswhoz:
Marston didn't write Wonder Woman 28. Joyce Murchison did. Marston probably wrote very little after 1945 when Kanigher took over writing all the Sensation stories. Many other people wrote Wonder Woman in this era, including Dorothy and William Woolfolk, Lee Goldsmith, Alvin Schwartz and Joseph Greene. The idea that Marston wrote every single WW until his death is just as much a myth as that Bob Kane drew all those Batman stories he signed.

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Oh, I know Marston employed other writers; I mean that Wonder Woman was still “his baby,” in that he oversaw all his writers, was involved in the plotting, and probably had final say on her portrayal. Even after #28- I think that was the last issue he oversaw before he died- the quality of the stories remained high, since Marston stories, or those of his writers, were still appearing- sometimes intermixed with the really unimaginative stories of Robert Kanigher.

My knowledge of the later Sensation stories is less sure, but I’ve read enough of the stories appearing between ’45 and ’49 that I have a hard time believing Kanigher wrote the Wonder Woman Sensation stories from 1945-on. The stories and themes of those stories seem too “Marstonian.” Of course, this is just based on my own observations, but I sometimes I have trouble believing people can’t see the difference between a Marston story, with their cleverness and subtle humour, and a Kanigher story, which I find humourless and preachy.

posted February 18, 2003 02:52 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Ace Arn:
The answer is, it seems to me, very easy. Stop making Archives when you get to the point that it's cheaper (and as easy) to buy the back issues themselves than it is to buy the Archive.

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I don't think that works either, Ace.
And I'm one of the strongest advocates for getting as much 1940-1965 material as possible into archives as quickly as possible.

posted February 18, 2003 12:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by James Friel:
A) Some cheap stuff is getting pretty old, and that trend will continue--age is no longer a guarantee of high price in the back issue market. There's probably already material from the late 1960s that could be excluded by your rule.

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So? Then don't archive it. Why spend $50 on a reprint of books that are in the quarter bins of a hundred comic shops?

quote:

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B) lots of people don't want to collect individual issues, but want the material in hardcover. If they'll buy the volumes, why shouldn't DC produce them?

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posted February 18, 2003 12:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ace Arn:
Why spend $50 on a reprint of books that are in the quarter bins of a hundred comic shops?

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The time and effort to accumulate the books I want (including the cost of gasoline, parking, and travel time) is worth far more than $50 to me and there's no guarantee I'll even find all of them on the first try. It's cheaper and easier to buy the hardcover, and a hardcover is much easier to store than bags, boards, and boxes.

posted February 18, 2003 01:30 PM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Ace Arn:
Can't argue with that point. But I would (politely) question the sanity of said consumers. Unless they had Donald Trump's wallet.

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I don't think sanity has anything to do with it. For the reasons James and Bear Paws have said, I simply like the aesthetics of the Archives, and prefer them over comics. Jesus, think of all the trades and HCs I've bought over the last couple years, if I had to track down every last one of them in comic bins.

These collections suit me perfectly. I get to sit back and let DC do all the work and get the comics I want (from Golden Age Superman to New Teen Titans) in a pristine collection. I think DC and I have a great relationship working here.